Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEASE!!!

[cibaman]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

We are yet to see a Fernando-Fernandinho-Yaya trio from the start if I am correct.

Funny because fernando is a holding midfielder, always was and played at the base of a trio in Porto. not in a duo like here with Yaya mostly who doesnt run back to help out or tackle or etc 90 % of the times.

Then we have Fernandinho who played at a very good Sahtar but he isnt holding midfielder, he played there mostly last year and did well but not so much suited yet he had to play there as only other options were Garcia and Rodwell.
But he played in the middle of a midfield trio at Sahtar. He had lot of energy to run all game but always he had one team mate behind him for tackles, keeping CB's safe.

As Yaya cant be trusted with off the ball work(workrate) we really should try this trio as it hopefully would give us enough stability in the middle from the start. Maybe fullbacks could go ahead to attack lot more on both sides. Maybe Yaya could play closer to the goal where he is really dangerous.He is good at controlling games deeper but just doesnt work hard when we dont have the ball and we have a whole there in his position, its a weakess and teams punish this from time to time.

We have an original holding midfielder in Fernando, a CM, box-to-box type in Fernandinho, at least thats what he played in Sahtar for years and was a good performer what probably made him our target...

Of course this brings us the problem fthat for a 433 we would need someone from the wings with lot of pace that can score and create in the mould of Robben, Ribery, Reus, CR etc. I can only see it in Jovetic in our squad. But he isnt so fast.
We have Navas, Nasri, Milner, none of them good for 433 wide role.Navas hardly beats defenders, does well when he has lot of place to run into and cross but when its not about counterattacks he just doesnt do much.
Milner not much different, just less pace and more workrate.
Nasri not intensive enough for this.

But we still have to give up 442 as it makes attacking and creating chances against us easy. Too open, not enough discipline, running, workrate from a set of players when its get hard. Defenders for this reason tend to make more and bigger mistakes. And we end up with another disappointment as usual...

Just watch the 10-20 seconds before CSKA pen awarded and their first goal.Things leading up to their goal, to their pen...
Or Totti's goal or Boateng's...

Pellegrini needs to get the defending right. Thats the basic. Ad its not just about the 4 defenders and their marking. It starts with how the striker, winger moves and what they do when we lose a ball, or when we cross it ends up at a keeper who throws it off. What does the winger, striker attcking cm does and how fast they are. Thats where defending starts. If its not with pressing them as we dont do that then it has to be tracking back.

Haha you beat me to it. I have posted almost exactly this in my previous post.

As for the bolded portion, this is the part that needs emphasis. Whenever I have seen this trio, its like:

a)
---Fernando--------Fernandinho
---------------Yaya---------------------

Yaya is cut off and too much further up the pitch. I do not know why Pellegrini does it. In fact, this would be much more effective if we want a 2DM-1AM midfield:

b)
---Fernando--------Fernandinho
---------------Silva---------------------

a) gives us an illusion of a 3 man midfield. Yaya does nothing defensively in that role and is too high up the pitch, whereas with a b) like midfield we beat Bayern away. It also allows us to protect our flanks much better and allows Silva to flourish.

What I'd like to see in a 3 CM midfield is this:

c)
-----------------Fernando------------------
------Fernandinho----Yaya---------------

its what both Fernandinho and Fernando are used to as you have pointed out. It also allows Yaya to control from a deeper position, doesn't put off his defensive duties (even if he doesnt carry them out, unlike in a) where he is basically given a free role).

You've got Yaya playing on the left of midfield. He doesnt do that, he plays centrally. When Fernando and Yaya are in the same team they essentially line up in a straight line with Yaya about 25m further forward than Fernando. In that line up Fernandhino would be forced to play wide right.

 

[City1974]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

At the moment the form of Toure is such that we are almost playing with 10 men, and our central midfield in particular can be cut through.

We can play with 2 forwards if Toure could put a shift in.

If Toures' form continues to be poor please lets not buy Ozil as his replacement any time. Rather Barkley or Pogba next summer and for now drop Toure and either bring in Fernandinho to play alongside Fernando or use Milner in centre midfield alongside Fernando and use Navas on the right side of midfield\winger.

 

[tonea2003]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

At the moment the form of Toure is such that we are almost playing with 10 men, and our central midfield in particular can be cut through.

We can play with 2 forwards if Toure could put a shift in.

If Toures' form continues to be poor please lets not buy Ozil as his replacement any time. Rather Barkley or Pogba next summer and for now drop Toure and either bring in Fernandinho to play alongside Fernando or use Milner in centre midfield alongside Fernando and use Navas on the right side of midfield\winger.

that's the conundrum, toure's lack of defensive mobility(steam train going forward, puffin billy coming back) leaves us susceptible against the better teams on the counter, bayern at home being the prime example

yesterday was a collective being shit second half regardless of tactics.

but in the biggest games winning the midfield battle is crucial, time and time again in europe we have failed in this objective hence the lack of a clean sheet.

in essence i agree with the op especially if toure is to be part of the midfield

 

[BillyShears]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

There have been numerous threads and posts stating the same over the past few months.We,as fans,can see it,so why cant the manager?

Because the manager has a little more to go on when picking a team/formation than just the 90 minutes he watched on television.

That's not a dig either mate, just a reality. Managers ALL have their ways, and Pellegrini is no different. The idea that he's going to morph into Mourinho and starting closing games down or picking pragmatic teams whilst leaving multi million pound attacking players cooling their heals on the bench seems highly unlikely to me.

It sort of makes this cry, because lets face it it's been the same cry since October of last year, almost entirely redundant. We need to accept who our manager is and how he likes to set his teams up and move on from this obsession with two vs three man midfield.

As I said in the post game match thread - 442 wasn't the reason we lost, it wasn't even one of the major reasons we lost. It is however an easy thing to point to whenever the result isn't what we would've liked.

 

[Rolee]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

So the consensus here seems to be to go with Fernado ( De Jong ), Fernandinho ( Barry ) and Yaya. Let's just bring Mancini back and be done with it.

OP mentions to let Yaya do what he does best. What Yaya does best is sit deep and conduct, his passing is his biggest asset, yet we want him to play further forward? So we want to push him up into Silva's area of the field?

Perhaps someone/anyone can explain to me why when we had the system in place that everyone's calling for in the last twenty last night we still looked wide open defensively?

 

[dadnlad]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

the end of the day he made substitutions and they still walked through us

u shouldn't have to score 3 goals away from home to win a game get in front and shut up shop slow the game down

I blame the manager !!!

 

[tonea2003]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

So the consensus here seems to be to go with Fernado ( De Jong ), Fernandinho ( Barry ) and Yaya. Let's just bring Mancini back and be done with it.

OP mentions to let Yaya do what he does best. What Yaya does best is sit deep and conduct, his passing is his biggest asset, yet we want him to play further forward? So we want to push him up into Silva's area of the field?

Perhaps someone/anyone can explain to me why when we had the system in place that everyone's calling for in the last twenty last night we still looked wide open defensively?

its not the system that wins the games its the players, pellegrini did the right thing in making it a 5 but when as a team(for reasons unknown) they just went to shite no system will help

ball retention was appalling second half

 

[Rolee]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

So the consensus here seems to be to go with Fernado ( De Jong ), Fernandinho ( Barry ) and Yaya. Let's just bring Mancini back and be done with it.

OP mentions to let Yaya do what he does best. What Yaya does best is sit deep and conduct, his passing is his biggest asset, yet we want him to play further forward? So we want to push him up into Silva's area of the field?

Perhaps someone/anyone can explain to me why when we had the system in place that everyone's calling for in the last twenty last night we still looked wide open defensively?

its not the system that wins the games its the players, pellegrini did the right thing in making it a 5 but when as a team(for reasons unknown) they just went to shite no system will help

ball retention was appalling second half

That's my point. The manager isn't blameless as it's his responsibilty to ensure his players are properly focussed but blaming the system is nonsense, the system has been succesful for the manager before in this competition but if the players aren't putting the work in, can't string a few passes together, get the majority of their decision making wrong and gift the opposition with possesion in dangerous areas then it doesn't matter a jot what system you're playing.

 

[TueartsOHK]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

With the exception of the League cup and the Villa game (who have had 12 shots on target this season) we have conceded in every game in all competitions this season. The problem has to be with the defence or the protection of the defence. This means that the opposition feel they always have a chance of getting back into the game and we never control a game in the manner that Chelsea do. We may play more entertaining football but it makes it hard to beat the better teams who aren't afraid of having a go at us. I'm no football tactician but it is clear that we have to sort out this problem and become harder to break down - particulary when were leading in a game we have to learn how to shut the door.

 

[BillyShears]

Re: Stop the 4-2-2-2 and go with a three man midfield, PLEAS

ball retention was appalling second half

Was the same against Spurs for large parts of the match.

As I said in the post match thread, the biggest problem last night was just how rubbish Kun, Dzeko, Silva, Milner, Yaya, were in the second half. We're a team who normally finish games much stronger than we start them. Sadly regardless of the personnel and tactics, last night we were weak in our play and in our game intelligence. The third goal could've been scored probably half a dozen time yet it never came because of our players making a weak pass, weak shot, choosing the wrong option. You can't legislate for this and it has nothing to do with what the tactical shape of the team was, just as you can't legislate for more awful awful officiating. Put the two together and you've got a recipe for dropped points.