Tax cuts

inbetween said:
In Europe they haven't done these things, they spend a huge amount more money on infrastructure and they haven't borrowed crazy amounts. This is why countries like Germany pay similar tax and yet their national debt is nearly half of ours and everything is brand new and works!
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European countries do not generally join in every war going to please our American friends, nor do they (with the arguable exception of France) have a burning desire to be seen as a 'Great Power'.

This is a major factor, but in addition, most European countries pay more tax than we do (at least in terms of direct taxation) and consequently have better services. They were never deluded by the wishful financial thinking of Thatcherism, which pretended it could all be done by 'cutting waste'.
 
Brewster's millions said:
The top 10% of earners contribute 60% of all income tax receipts, so I would say that people on the top rate do actually pay their tax.
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Well that's not surprising. The top 10% is anyone earning more than £59,300. Hell, even most of the top 1% are people doing a job for a wage and paying a rate of income tax on it like the rest of us. That's not really what I was talking about when I said "billionaires, multi-millionaires and huge corporations" was it?

Let's say you've got £400m in wealth, assets and various other things, and you get an average annual return of 5% on that (which would be pretty poor). That's an increase in wealth by £20m. Now if you were a footballer earning £20m a year, you'd pay 45% on that. If you're someone who sat on his arse and just watched the value of pre-existing assets increase, you would pay 20% of however much you happened to feel like selling that year (that's before we even consider all of the accounting tricks out there to make sure you don't even pay that). And given that no-one really needs £20m a year to live on, the reality is that very few are ever paying a rate of tax that reflects the amount that their wealth increases every year.

So no, I don't think the super rich pay their fair share for the most part. Far from it.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
Well that's not surprising. The top 10% is anyone earning more than £59,300. Hell, even most of the top 1% are people doing a job for a wage and paying a rate of income tax on it like the rest of us. That's not really what I was talking about when I said "billionaires, multi-millionaires and huge corporations" was it?

Let's say you've got £400m in wealth, assets and various other things, and you get an average annual return of 5% on that (which would be pretty poor). That's an increase in wealth by £20m. Now if you were a footballer earning £20m a year, you'd pay 45% on that. If you're someone who sat on his arse and just watched the value of pre-existing assets increase, you would pay 20% of however much you happened to feel like selling that year (that's before we even consider all of the accounting tricks out there to make sure you don't even pay that). And given that no-one really needs £20m a year to live on, the reality is that very few are ever paying a rate of tax that reflects the amount that their wealth increases every year.

So no, I don't think the super rich pay their fair share for the most part. Far from it.
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Exactly mate. The tax system is woefully policed and needs urgent reform.
 
inbetween said:
In Europe they haven't done these things, they spend a huge amount more money on infrastructure and they haven't borrowed crazy amounts. This is why countries like Germany pay similar tax and yet their national debt is nearly half of ours and everything is brand new and works!
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Germany has a similar system to the Nordic countries with regard to borrowing. The Government of the day can't just borrow to fill a hole in the budget. Normal outlay and cost have to be balanced by income. They can borrow to fund large projects in e.g. infrastructure but there has to be a plan to pay it back. For example the bridge between Sweden and Denmark was financed with loans. It opend in 2000 and is due to be paid off in 2050.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
Well that's not surprising. The top 10% is anyone earning more than £59,300. Hell, even most of the top 1% are people doing a job for a wage and paying a rate of income tax on it like the rest of us. That's not really what I was talking about when I said "billionaires, multi-millionaires and huge corporations" was it?

Let's say you've got £400m in wealth, assets and various other things, and you get an average annual return of 5% on that (which would be pretty poor). That's an increase in wealth by £20m. Now if you were a footballer earning £20m a year, you'd pay 45% on that. If you're someone who sat on his arse and just watched the value of pre-existing assets increase, you would pay 20% of however much you happened to feel like selling that year (that's before we even consider all of the accounting tricks out there to make sure you don't even pay that). And given that no-one really needs £20m a year to live on, the reality is that very few are ever paying a rate of tax that reflects the amount that their wealth increases every year.

So no, I don't think the super rich pay their fair share for the most part. Far from it.
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And if you invested that money in AIM (Alternative Investment Market) funds where it goes to small cap firms its tax free and free from inheritance tax. And you wonder why the rich get richer!
 
BrianW said:
European countries do not generally join in every war going to please our American friends, nor do they (with the arguable exception of France) have a burning desire to be seen as a 'Great Power'.

This is a major factor, but in addition, most European countries pay more tax than we do (at least in terms of direct taxation) and consequently have better services. They were never deluded by the wishful financial thinking of Thatcherism, which pretended it could all be done by 'cutting waste'.
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If you consider income tax as a whole then indeed we could pay more but who is arguing for a general rise on taxation? That is surely what's needed if we were to put ourselves on par with Europe? How else could we do it because punitive taxes on the rich aren't going to do it.

Labour are saying they'll tax rich people more but actually the rich are taxed at very similar rates to the rest of Europe. It isn't the rich that should pay more, everybody has to pay more but that isn't a vote winner is it? This is why middle England often retreats from Labour to vote Tory. Your problem really then is with voters and not the system as voters have shown that they will not reduce their own position to fund public services better.

The funny thing about Labour this time around is they've just replaced the Tory party. They want to do big things with the public sector but the simple fact is they can't and they aren't going to find enough money from the rich. They can't put general taxes up so in effect restricted public spending is going to remain and they haven't mentioned cancelling stupid projects like HS2.

What is really required is honesty but none of this political class are prepared to be honest because they're more interested in power struggles. The other alternatives require imagination and problem solving such as reforming things like NI but no party is offering that either. With this in mind I wouldn't expect anything to get better for a very long time regardless of who gets into power.

This is probably also why voting apathy is at an all time high. Labour are not going to fix things let's face it but people are not willing to pay more tax to fix it so what else can they expect? With this in mind everybody expects the rich to save us but every fact and figure proves that they can't and won't. What's left is to blame everybody else which is why immigration is coming to front stage centre.
 
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inbetween said:
If you consider income tax as a whole then indeed we could pay more but who is arguing for a general rise on taxation? That is surely what's needed if we were to put ourselves on par with Europe? How else could we do it because punitive taxes on the rich aren't going to do it.

Labour are saying they'll tax rich people more but actually the rich are taxed at very similar rates to the rest of Europe. It isn't the rich that should pay more, everybody has to pay more but that isn't a vote winner is it? This is why middle England often retreats from Labour to vote Tory. Your problem really then is with voters and not the system as voters have shown that they will not reduce their own position to fund public services better.

The funny thing about Labour this time around is they've just replaced the Tory party. They want to do big things with the public sector but the simple fact is they can't and they aren't going to find enough money from the rich. They can't put general taxes up so in effect restricted public spending is going to remain and they haven't mentioned cancelling stupid projects like HS2.

What is really required is honesty but none of this political class are prepared to be honest because they're more interested in power struggles. The other alternatives require imagination and problem solving such as reforming things like NI but no party is offering that either. With this in mind I wouldn't expect anything to get better for a very long time regardless of who gets into power.

This is probably also why voting apathy is at an all time high. Labour are not going to fix things let's face it but people are not willing to pay more tax to fix it so what else can they expect? With this in mind everybody expects the rich to save us but every fact and figure proves that they can't and won't. What's left is to blame everybody else which is why immigration is coming to front stage centre.
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I agree, it is not enough to make 'the rich' pay more.

All of us, except the poorest, need to pay more.

Unfortunately, most of the public are not yet ready to hear this. The main objective for Labour is to get elected and so Starmer is being ultra cautious. If he said: 'We will do this, that, and that' people would ask where the money was coming from. And they would suspect the answer to be more tax, bearing on them.

Times are tough for most people. I quite understand why most react with horror to the thought of more tax. It's entirely understandable. This is essentially a low-pay, high-cost economy. We are ripped off left, right and centre. But the idea that we can improve public services significantly by 'economies' and 'savings' is delusional. There just isn't enough fat left on the carcass.
 
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