The battle for 3rd place

[Exeter Blue I am here]

West Brom's form is genuinely incredible. Since reaching 40 points in February, they've won 1 game out of 10, losing 7.

With the form they were in until they got 40 pts, they were on target for 58. The form they've had since then is the equivalent to 19 pts in a season.

It's not necessarily about form though is it, but about styles of play that accentuate the opposition's weakness, and that notwithstanding, in that 10 game run West Brom have faced 5 of the current top 7 plus Palace and Leicester who've both been in much improved form of late. They made life extremely difficult for Chelsea on Friday and I wonder what it is about our performances at home against physically imposing bus parkers, who lump it long on the counter, that fills you with so much confidence for Tuesday night. We couldn't break down Stoke, we couldn't break down the rags, we were frustrated by Boro, we were frustrated by Everton, we were frustrated by Southampton, we needed last gasp winners to get out of jail at home to Swansea and even Sunderland, and we nearly chucked away 3 points on Saturday. Personally I'm expecting a titanic grind tomorrow night and I think there's far greater chance of an upset in that game than there is in the Watford one. We should win on paper, and I know it's irrational to think this way when we've only lost at home once all season, but I'd suggest it's far from cut and dried. The crowd have a big part to play. The other potential plus is that I think Pulis has an inferiority complex when it comes to City. What's he beaten us? Once ever?

 

[Gray]

Pep has done no better or worse than the previous manager, but I expected much more.

He has not improved existing players, which is what I was looking for and his decision on the goalkeeping position still baffles me.

Not had a lot of luck with injuries to Kompany, Gundogan (gamble) and Jesus and I wonder why we signed Nolito at all.

He has however got a couple of gems for the future in Jesus and Sane and if he can put some bottle into Stirling we will have a young exciting trio for years to come.

Still have hopes that Stones will come good and if he addresses the teams weaknesses we should be much better next season.

Got to acquire 1 x Keeper (Bravo not the answer), 2 x Full Backs (Walker, Bertrand), 1 x Central Defender (Bonucci), a replacement for Yaya (Reus) and a tall forward (Aubameyang) in my opinion, also a new Nigel de Jong would not go amiss.

 

[Akiva]

He has not improved existing players

Raheem Sterling, Alex Kolarov, David Silva, Yaya Toure, Willy Caballero and arguably Jesus Navas have all improved from last year, under Pep.

 

[Busmo Funbag]

2. Those who do agree on the above, tend to actually be uninformed bellends who most would be ashamed to be connected with, ala Stan Collymore and Paul Merson or long time City-detractors like Jeremy Cross and Duncan Castles

Ah the good old, people who don't agree with me know nothing argument. Nice one.

 

[Busmo Funbag]

Raheem Sterling, Alex Kolarov, David Silva, Yaya Toure, Willy Caballero and arguably Jesus Navas have all improved from last year, under Pep.

Sterling and Yaya I would agree with, Silva has always been good, Willy only looks good compared to the traffic cone he is now compared to, Navas has been just the same barring a couple of matches and Kolarov has gone from very shit to just shit which I suppose is still an improvement.

 

[Akiva]

Ah the good old, people who don't agree with me know nothing argument. Nice one.

I think my examples fit that description perfectly.

I don't have any problem suggesting that the Pep Out brigade are a few sandwiches short of a full picnic though.

Sterling and Yaya I would agree with, Silva has always been good, Willy only looks good compared to the traffic cone he is now compared to, Navas has been just the same barring a couple of matches and Kolarov has gone from very shit to just shit which I suppose is still an improvement.

Silva was rather poor last season, struggled for form.

Willy has been pretty decent, even without comparing him to Bravo. He makes some vital saves and his distribution is night and day from last season. I think you do him a disservice.

Navas has adopted rather well to RB, so much so that he'd be considered for a contract extension as squad depth there.

Kolarov has been, statistically, among the best CBs in the league this year.

Whether you like these players or not is irrelevant, the only question is if they have improved from last season and the answer is yes.

 

[Tom_mcfc]

I think my examples fit that description perfectly.

I don't have any problem suggesting that the Pep Out brigade are a few sandwiches short of a full picnic though.



Silva was rather poor last season, struggled for form.

Willy has been pretty decent, even without comparing him to Bravo. He makes some vital saves and his distribution is night and day from last season. I think you do him a disservice.

Navas has adopted rather well to RB, so much so that he'd be considered for a contract extension as squad depth there.

Kolarov has been, statistically, among the best CBs in the league this year.

Whether you like these players or not is irrelevant, the only question is if they have improved from last season and the answer is yes.

Willy has stepped up, I don't think that is much to do with Pep though, if Pep had his way Willy wouldn't of played much this season.

Navas is getting an extension as we have so many players contracts ending him staying simply makes sense rather than it reflecting his performances. We will lose Zabba and Sagna so it just makes sense to keep a flexible player. Reports are Clichy has an offer on the table, for the same reasons as it would be agreed throughout he hasn't done anything to deserve it.

Kolarov "statistically" among the best centre backs hey? Well if that's the case why on earth are we looking anywhere else? Oh probably because statistics can cover up any old shite.

For me Sterling is the only player to improve, the improvement in Yaya has been mentally rather than ability wise but either way that is through Pep.

So basically the question is have they improved on last season, in your opinion yes in probably many others no. On the same note is Pep to take blame for De Bruyne being poorer this season?

 

[FantasyIreland]

Raheem Sterling, Alex Kolarov, David Silva, Yaya Toure, Willy Caballero and arguably Jesus Navas have all improved from last year, under Pep.

Aguero too......The penny finally dropped that his game had to evolve and improve,and under the instruction and direction of Pep,it has.

 

[Akiva]

Willy has stepped up, I don't think that is much to do with Pep though, if Pep had his way Willy wouldn't of played much this season.

While true, again, to ignore the improvements Willy has made in his game does a disservice to him. His distribution, and confidence, are markedly improved.

You can say that's down to Willy, fair enough, but it's happened under Pep and that's what matters.

Navas is getting an extension as we have so many players contracts ending him staying simply makes sense rather than it reflecting his performances.

That's largely irrelevant though. At the start of the season, indeed only up until a few months ago, Navas was on his bike to Seville. Last season too, he was among our biggest underachievers with a miserable final ball that all but consigned him to be dumped.

Kolarov "statistically" among the best centre backs hey? Well if that's the case why on earth are we looking anywhere else? Oh probably because statistics can cover up any old shite.

If you don't think Kola has improved this season then you haven't been paying attention.

I never said he was good enough going forward. Only that he's improved under Pep. He has.

For me Sterling is the only player to improve, the improvement in Yaya has been mentally rather than ability wise but either way that is through Pep.

So basically the question is have they improved on last season, in your opinion yes in probably many others no. On the same note is Pep to take blame for De Bruyne being poorer this season?

KDB is playing a deeper role and I would argue that our reliance on him last season was because Silva was out of sorts (ditto Yaya) and we had no suitable play-makers like Leroy Sane to lean on.

You can blame Pep for KDB if you'd like, but I was responding to a comment that said Pep hadn't improved existing players and that's simply false.

Aguero too......The penny finally dropped that his game had to evolve and improve,and under the instruction and direction of Pep,it has.

Also this.

 

[Busmo Funbag]

I think my examples fit that description perfectly.

I don't have any problem suggesting that the Pep Out brigade are a few sandwiches short of a full picnic though.



Silva was rather poor last season, struggled for form.

Willy has been pretty decent, even without comparing him to Bravo. He makes some vital saves and his distribution is night and day from last season. I think you do him a disservice.

Navas has adopted rather well to RB, so much so that he'd be considered for a contract extension as squad depth there.

Kolarov has been, statistically, among the best CBs in the league this year.

Whether you like these players or not is irrelevant, the only question is if they have improved from last season and the answer is yes.

When did I say I don't like these players? Just because I don't think Pep has improved most of them doesn't mean I don't like them, does it? I quite like Navas, think he is a decent squad player but he has always been hard working but average and has been exactly that this season. How many matches has he played at full back this season, can't be more than about 3 or 4? And you're using his form as full back to evidence Pep getting significant improvement out of him? Do me a favour. kolarov may be a great defender statistically but in terms of defending on the pitch where it matters he is poor and wouldn't get anywhere near any other top 6 team. I will give you the improvement there though because despite him still being poor he is marginally less poor. Still think it is scraping the barrel a bit to be mentioning Kolarov's improvement as evidence for how much Pep has improved players. I really like Willy but let's not kid ourselves that he's anything other than a fairly bog standard keeper, just our expectations have been lowered so dramatically this season when it comes to keepers. Pep dropped him a couple of weeks back and without Bravo busting a muscle (presumably from the shock of catching a cross successfully) then pretty sure we wouldn't have seen him again. So presumably even Pep doesn't think Willy has been particularly good?

 

[blueparrot]

Raheem Sterling, Alex Kolarov, David Silva, Yaya Toure, Willy Caballero and arguably Jesus Navas have all improved from last year, under Pep.

I'd say Stones and Otamendi have improved from the season start, Stones has more to come but he's a better player than he started, Otamendi isn't diving in nearly as much.

 

[Akiva]

When did I say I don't like these players? Just because I don't think Pep has improved most of them doesn't mean I don't like them, does it? I quite like Navas, think he is a decent squad player but he has always been hard working but average and has been exactly that this season. How many matches has he played at full back this season, can't be more than about 3 or 4? And you're using his form as full back to evidence Pep getting significant improvement out of him? Do me a favour. kolarov may be a great defender statistically but in terms of defending on the pitch where it matters he is poor and wouldn't get anywhere near any other top 6 team. I will give you the improvement there though because despite him still being poor he is marginally less poor. Still think it is scraping the barrel a bit to be mentioning Kolarov's improvement as evidence for how much Pep has improved players. I really like Willy but let's not kid ourselves that he's anything other than a fairly bog standard keeper, just our expectations have been lowered so dramatically this season when it comes to keepers. Pep dropped him a couple of weeks back and without Bravo busting a muscle (presumably from the shock of catching a cross successfully) then pretty sure we wouldn't have seen him again. So presumably even Pep doesn't think Willy has been particularly good?

I think you're confusing "player is good enough" for "player has improved". Nowhere did I suggest Willy, Navas and Kolarov are good enough for City both right now or in the future. That's a discussion for another topic.

The comment was originally made that Pep hasn't improved any players. As someone who wrote off Raheem Sterling at the end of last season (I'd have personally moved him on) I'm more than willing to admit that I was wrong and Pep has improved him leaps and bounds (he's among our best players this season).
Others too have improved, year-on-year. Silva and Yaya looked ready to be led out to pasture under Pellers, but both have a new lease of life in them.
Willy has stepped up, no doubt about it, but it was Pep that forced him to work on his distribution and has brought him to a level where he's even "fairly bog standard".
Kolarov is shit, OK fine, but he's a much better Kolarov than last season and that's a fact.

See where I'm going with this? I don't care what you think about the players. I'm fine with half or more of them being shipped off in the summer and clearly there's some individuals who are beyond saving (see: Gael Clichy). The point is, Pep Guardiola has improved many of the players he has inherited, indeed perhaps a majority. Not by chance, or coincidence, but because he's widely credited as being one of the best coaches in football.

This is why we are lucky to have Pep and many successful seasons will be built on the shoulders of the one in which some of our lot had a moan about a top four finish.

I'd say Stones and Otamendi have improved from the season start, Stones has more to come but he's a better player than he started, Otamendi isn't diving in nearly as much.

Otamendi is certainly improved. Far less erratic and has been for some time. Vinny's presence helps, but it's well-known Pep came out strongly against his tendency to fly into wild challenges too often.

 

[domalino]

It's not necessarily about form though is it, but about styles of play that accentuate the opposition's weakness, and that notwithstanding, in that 10 game run West Brom have faced 5 of the current top 7 plus Palace and Leicester who've both been in much improved form of late. They made life extremely difficult for Chelsea on Friday and I wonder what it is about our performances at home against physically imposing bus parkers, who lump it long on the counter, that fills you with so much confidence for Tuesday night. We couldn't break down Stoke, we couldn't break down the rags, we were frustrated by Boro, we were frustrated by Everton, we were frustrated by Southampton, we needed last gasp winners to get out of jail at home to Swansea and even Sunderland, and we nearly chucked away 3 points on Saturday. Personally I'm expecting a titanic grind tomorrow night and I think there's far greater chance of an upset in that game than there is in the Watford one. We should win on paper, and I know it's irrational to think this way when we've only lost at home once all season, but I'd suggest it's far from cut and dried. The crowd have a big part to play. The other potential plus is that I think Pulis has an inferiority complex when it comes to City. What's he beaten us? Once ever?

This is such a classic post by you. I don't get annoyed by it or anything, because unlike others I don't think you're deliberately trying to be overly negative, I think you're just a massive pessimist and it's quite funny seeing you take the worst possible conclusion from everything.

You see West Brom have the worst form in the league and think it's not relevant because some of their games they didn't completely roll over.

You see Pulis has a shit record against us and think that's a sign of impending danger, not proof that he doesn't deal with us well.

It's not necessarily about form though is it, but about styles of play that accentuate the opposition's weakness

Yes, Pulis does have a very particular style of play, one that's seen his teams lose the last 5 games in a row to us, and lose 10 of the last 12 dating back to Mancini taking over, with an aggregate scoreline of 25-3 to us.


Pulis' team is on the beach, in the worst form of anyone, and he has an absolutely shocking record against us dating back 5 years. We're playing better, Kompany's back, Jesus has created a buzz and the crowd will be up for Zaba's last game.

None of this means we'll 100% definitely win, no game is ever 100% definitely a win, but it's probably going to be a win, so there's no need to panic about it. Liverpool and Arsenal aren't looking at this and thinking it's a banana skin for us.

 

[FantasyIreland]

I think you're confusing "player is good enough" for "player has improved". Nowhere did I suggest Willy, Navas and Kolarov are good enough for City both right now or in the future. That's a discussion for another topic.

The comment was originally made that Pep hasn't improved any players. As someone who wrote off Raheem Sterling at the end of last season, I'd have personally moved him on, I'm more than willing to admit that I was wrong and Pep has improved him leaps and bounds (he's among our best players this season).
Others too have improved, year-on-year. Silva and Yaya looked ready to be led out to pasture under Pellers, but both have a new lease of life in them.
Willy has stepped up, no doubt about it, but it was Pep that forced him to work on his distribution and has brought him to a level where he's even "fairly bog standard".
Kolarov is shit, OK fine, but he's a much better Kolarov than last season and that's a fact.

See where I'm going with this? I don't care what you think about the players. I'm fine with half or more of them being shipped off in the summer and clearly there's some individuals who are beyond saving (see: Gael Clichy). The point is, Pep Guardiola has improved many of the players he has inherited, indeed perhaps a majority. Not by chance, or coincidence, but because he's widely credited as being one of the best coaches in football.

This is why we are lucky to have Pep and many successful seasons will be built on the shoulders of the one in which some of our lot had a moan about a top four finish.



Otamendi is certainly improved. Far less erratic and has been for some time. Vinny's presence helps, but it's well-known Pep came out strongly against his tendency to fly into wild challenges too often.

Great post pal,bang on the money.

Especially where Kolarov is concerned,i was very much in the 'you cant polish a turd' camp.......but Pep has somehow been able to get a shine,which speaks volumes about his methods and ability.

The huge task of turning around this tired,ageing,and demotivated squad,wasnt immediately apparent,but as the season has worn on,and injuries,stamina and lack of form have been a factor,the team has struggled to keep pace.Pep has done his best to counter this,and although some of his efforts havent worked out as he would have hoped,to attain top 4,hopefully 3,and lay the foundations for a brilliant future has been more than acceptable for me.

 

[blueinsa]

This is such a classic post by you. I don't get annoyed by it or anything, because unlike others I don't think you're deliberately trying to be overly negative, I think you're just a massive pessimist and it's quite funny seeing you take the worst possible conclusion from everything.

You see West Brom have the worst form in the league and think it's not relevant because some of their games they didn't completely roll over.

You see Pulis has a shit record against us and think that's a sign of impending danger, not proof that he doesn't deal with us well.




yes, Pulis does have a very particular style of play, one that's seen his teams lose the last 5 games in a row to us, and lose 10 of the last 12 dating back to Mancini taking over, with an aggregate scoreline of 25-3 to us.

@Exeter Blue I am here is a brilliant poster who i dont always agree with might i add but he takes the time and effort to put his views and opinions across in an intelligent way but like many at the moment, i cant help but feel he and they are tying themselves up in knots trying to find ways and excuses as to why we will lose a game of football.

As you say, history and evidence suggests we should win the game no problems.

 

[domalino]

a replacement for Yaya (Reus)

Have you ever seen Marco Reus play? Or is there another Reus?

 

[Gray]

Raheem Sterling, Alex Kolarov, David Silva, Yaya Toure, Willy Caballero and arguably Jesus Navas have all improved from last year, under Pep.

Sterling - Looked an improved version earlier on in the season but has reverted back to being infuriating.
Kolorov - Still a shit fullback but showed promise as a central defender, not had many games lately though.
Silva - Sorry don't agree he was already brilliant before Pep arrived.
Toure - Not improved him but managed to extend his career with careful management, I will hand that to Pep.
Caballero - How can you say Pep improved him he hardly ever played under the previous manager and is only playing now because Peps disastrous choice fortunately got injured.
Navas - Not improved at all but is a capable fullback which I suspected all along.

 

[Marvin]

getting something out of Kolarov and Navas in positions we didn't consider shows he is a good coach.

Many say Guardiola got lucky by managing great players, but I bet it's still demanding training very talented players and they'd see through you and stop playing if you had nothing to offer. To succeed once could be luck. But he did it at two different clubs and is spoken of in glowing terms.

The most interesting coach is Mourinho because there's no doubt he was one of the best in the game a decade ago, but look at him now. Going into games saying it is impossible to win, and defending against opponents like Anderlecht and Celta Vigo. perhaps coaches like players have a shelf life too.

 

[Marvin]

Sterling - Looked an improved version earlier on in the season but has reverted back to being infuriating.
Kolorov - Still a shit fullback but showed promise as a central defender, not had many games lately though.
Silva - Sorry don't agree he was already brilliant before Pep arrived.
Toure - Not improved him but managed to extend his career with careful management, I will hand that to Pep.
Caballero - How can you say Pep improved him he hardly ever played under the previous manager and is only playing now because Peps disastrous choice fortunately got injured.
Navas - Not improved at all but is a capable fullback which I suspected all along.

Must admit Sterling is frustrating me. He really has to be careful because Guardiola has made a lot of noise about being very frustrated with the finishing power of City's team. He could easily lose his place. Sane seems to be getting all the ball now because unlike Sterling he always takes his man on and takes responsibility. Sterling has got as much talent he just doesn't use it as much

 

[Akiva]

Sterling - Looked an improved version earlier on in the season but has reverted back to being infuriating.

He's still vastly improved on last season. He has made more PL assists since the start of April than he did in the entirety of his tenure under Pellers and is still scoring (for example, last week against Palace)

Kolorov - Still a shit fullback but showed promise as a central defender, not had many games lately though.

And who played him as a CB?

Silva - Sorry don't agree he was already brilliant before Pep arrived.

He was poor last season and has improved from that.

Toure - Not improved him but managed to extend his career with careful management, I will hand that to Pep.

Extending a player's career is improving them.

Caballero - How can you say Pep improved him he hardly ever played under the previous manager and is only playing now because Peps disastrous choice fortunately got injured.

Last season his pass accuracy was 55%, this season (despite playing more games), it's 75%.

No matter how you look at it, that's an improvement. FWIW, his confidence is also up.

Navas - Not improved at all but is a capable fullback which I suspected all along.

lol