The Boxing thread

nope boxing nerd, every issue of boxing monthly since 1997 and been to more live shows in so many different places I couldn’t remember them all

best was Trinidad v Mayorga at MSG

it’s strange that my opinion on AJs ability not being the same as yours means I hate him

hey ho

I said that because of this: "I’m pretty sure you’re a big AJ fan but he basically gave up tonight"

I like AJ but that's neither here nor there since I'm a fan of both fighters. That looked a subtle attempt to suggest I'm an AJ superfan(fanboy as they are known in the boxing community). I found that rich, since you've been quite defensive of Fury, dismissing Usyk as a "a blown up Cruiserweight with an average KO record". It almost looked like you were saying Wilder was a bigger risk to his 0 than Usyk would be. I don't think Fury will fight Usyk, at least not while he has his 0 to protect. Not because he thinks he'll be knocked out by him. I just don't think he fancies his chances of being able to out box Usyk and he's not knocking him out either. I think most would rather face Wilder because he's more beatable, he's not been avoided, he's been protected. You also said "Whyte gives Usyk a lot more problems than AJ", which I also disagree with.

I think it's more strange you think I must be an AJ super fan because I think it's a silly thing to do to call AJ "average" or make out he doesn't have the heart of a fighter and that he "gave up". I like AJ but I'm a boxing fan first, I just don't like to see these false narratives and double standards. I think I pretty much called it earlier on this thread a few days before the fight, it was a lose lose for AJ. He wouldn't have got the credit if he knocked him out and people would use a loss to say he was never any good. That's pretty much what I said and the latter is exactly what some people are doing.

Criticising ranked opponents with credible boxing resumes of their own for AJ's wins, whilst rating Wilder as a massive win for Fury. If you think it's worth more that Wilder was "ranked in the top 3"(Wlad was ranked in the top 2 when AJ fought him if I remember right) without actually beating any top 10 opponents himself outside of Ortiz, who shouldn't have been ranked that high either(how is he still in any top 10? I don't get it). Isn't that double standards? Also, if you don't think the main reason AJ didn't get to Wilder first was first of all because Wilder was a protected fighter(like a lot of PBC title holders). While secondly believing, the fact that Wilder admitted he ducked AJ when he said to Fury "I was offered more money to fight AJ but I honoured my word with you" was worth anything. If you believe all that, then are in the tiny minority if you are the hardcore boxing fan you claim to be. Wilder does have a punchers chance but AJ could both outbox and knock Wilder out and he's not the only one that could do that to Wilder at HW.
 
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I think it's more strange you think I must be just a big AJ fan(subtle way of calling me a fanboy) because I think that's a silly thing to do to call AJ "average". I like AJ but I'm a boxing fan first, I just don't like to see these false narratives and double standards when it comes to AJ.

Criticising ranked opponents with credible boxing resumes of their own for AJ's wins, whilst rating Wilder as a massive win for Fury. If you think it's worth more that Wilder was "ranked higher" without actually beating any top 10 opponents himself outside of Ortiz who shouldn't have been ranked that high either(how is he still in any top 10? I don't get it). Or you don't think the main reason AJ didn't get to Wilder first was first of all because he was a protected fighter(like a lot of PBC title holders) and secondly ducking AJ and admitted it when he said to Fury "I was offered more money to fight AJ but I honoured my word with you". If you believe all that, then are in the tiny minority if you are the hardcore boxing fan you claim to be. Wilder does have a punchers chance but AJ could both outbox and knock Wilder out.

I don’t actually care about their opponents as I don’t think there’s anyone really out there who is a great name to have on your resume
The heavyweights are pretty poor in the main so I just go off what I see
I didn’t say Wilder was a massive win ( or AJ was average ) but I do think the win over him is a better win than anything bar Wlad on AJs record

I just don’t see anything special AJ does, he’s a big athletic guy with a powerful punch but I think that’s been negated now as he looks to be gun shy
 
Yep, wilder is a joke, one of the worst champs in history, avoiding the #1 ranked contender for over 1k days, embarrassing, that being whyte, who is a very limited but tough MF whom is also respected because he is willing to take on anybody.
Wilder doesn't deserve to spoken about in any discussion about elite level fighters.
Fury as great as he appears to be needs to share a ring with and prove how great he is against the best around right now. Strike klitchko and wilder off his list, who else has he fought that is considered decent?
Exactly, Wilder's route to champion and his defences in the 5 years(including his 3 mandatares which I've covered in a previous post tonight) he was champ are laughable. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as AJ or Fury.

Fury is more skilled as a boxer than AJ but he is less proven(quality of opposition). That's what resumes are for, settling the opinions from fact as best we can.

After the Ruiz Jr defeat I was confident that AJ would win the rematch because he simply wasn't right before that first bell(medical issue which I wont go into) and he fought the wrong fight on top of that. This time I don't think he will win the rematch, unless he can knock Usyk out but going for the KO could be dangerous too. You're there to be countered when you start committing consistently like that and Usyk is pretty good at that.
 
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AJ was bookies favourite v Wlad, AJ looks rocky after getting clipped on many occasions so not so sure you can say with much authority he beats wilder

I think it’s just AJ isn’t a fighter at his core, I’m pretty sure you’re a big AJ fan but he basically gave up tonight rather than take his lumps trying to get the win however he could leaving it all on the line

did he give absolutely everything to try and win that tonight ? I don’t think so and that’s because he’s not got a fighters heart
Great point about a fighters heart
 
I didn’t say Wilder was a massive win ( or AJ was average ) but I do think the win over him is a better win than anything bar Wlad on AJs record
Fair enough, I've looked back and your post came in between others saying that. You did make this argument tough:

"has AJ ever beaten anyone who was ranked as high a Wilder when they fought ? "

Which did look like you were making an argument that that win was worth a lot in terms of the resumes argument. You seemed to double down on it in this post and I disagree. Povetkin of 2017 beats Wilder hands down IMO, I'm not sure how many of those in AJ's top 5-6 wins Wilder beats either(he struggled with Ortiz), so Wilder himself can't be worth more. He doesn't beat the same Wlad AJ did, so that's another one I'm fairly certain he doesn't beat. He has power and not much else(other than the speed he throws his best punch) and he only has one way of delivering it. There's no saying he lands first on some of the better fighters of the division, the blueprint to not give him the space to throw that shot, was laid down by Ortiz if anything(who gets beat by most of AJ's best wins for me), Fury just did a better job of it in that second fight.

You also made the comment about his "heart" which is another point I disagree strongly with. The challenges he's took on is proof enough of the heart he has. As is getting up from a big right hand that would and did stop many HW fighers to stop Wlad himself late. Even the 4 times he got up, with no quit in him, against Ruiz Jr, in the circumstances of that night(the issues before the fight, getting hurt in the 3rd and unable to recover but sticking it out), was the opposite of what some made it out to be. Wilder and Fury started that narrative and their fans repeated their idol's trash talk as gospel. Then, when Wilder has the towel thrown in, because he's on the ropes defenceless and not throwing back, with the ref ready to wave it off anyway, half of them back tracked on their reasoning(at least they are consistent with their double standards).

The way I look at it in this fight, is there's a difference between being "gunshy" and being smart enough not to leave your chin out to dry by over committing too often, against a slick fighter with speed and enough power to keep anyone honest at HW. There's also the fatigue factor, Usyk's game is to wear people out before he goes for the finish. I do thin AJ should have been more active in the opening rounds but if he'd have gone too hard at the start of the fight, then he would have been in big trouble later on, if he didn't get him out of there. Despite what people say AJ is a real athlete, he was at a good weight(not too much muscle) and he was blowing hard in those last two rounds. He was absolutely spent by the time the final bell went. Usyk's stamina really is something, great performance too.

I wasn't even shocked by the result and said so in my predictions that I wouldn't be. Not because AJ is "average" or "has no heart" but because I was already a fan of Usyk and knew who AJ was up against. I've followed him from his cruiserweight days and recognised how good he was ages ago. I wasn't impressed with him vs Witherspoon or Chisora by his standards but he really took it up a few levels for AJ.
 
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Klitschko didn't lay a glove on Fury. Fury schooled him as he would have done in a rematch. I'm not a big boxing expert but my eyes tell me Fury is a far better fighter.

I don't particularly like Fury but as someone who has suffered with mental health problems surely you can see that he is someone who has struggled with demons & it isn't an act to get out of fights.
Would Joshua have got up from the punch Wilder hit Fury with? I think you know the answer to that.

I'm struggling with your assertion that Joshua has the best resume in heavyweight boxing. He ducked fighting Wilder numerous times. Klitschko (who Fury beat easily 18 months before Joshua beat him) & Parker (who Whyte beat) are his biggest 2 wins. I'm not sure how great a resume that is but if you say it's the best who am I to disagree!
Fury didn't hurt Wlad once in that fight other than the headbutt in the 5th round that caused a cut. It was a tactical fight, he spoiled Wlad's work by taking away his jab, with his feints and herky jerky movement(Jersey Joe Walcott did it much much better) to make it hard to time him or land anything flush. Wlad was too comfy setting all his power shots up behind his jab(something he learned with Manny Steward if I remember right), without it he became gunshy. That wasn't working in the rematch because he fought like a fighter that was willing to take some to give some and Fury doesn't have enough on his shots to win in a firefight with Wlad. Fury still ducked that rematch IMO and many other people say the same. The rematch would have been a different fight either way.

AJ got up from Wlad's best punch, he's never been knocked out. The only people who've hurt AJ are decent HW punchers. Wilder has been rocked and floored by journeymen. Fury put down heavily by a cruiserweight. Fury rode that Wilder punch anyway, so he didn't take the full brunt of it, that's one of his best assets(the head movement). He was never unconscious, he was gassed, you could tell by how clear his eyes were when he opened them(immediate eye contact with the ref) and how his legs were after he got up. Go back and look at Fury's legs after he got up from the cruiserweight(Steve Cunningham) knocking him down(wobbly, flat feet, holding on for dear life, leaning all over him etc), compare that with him bouncing on his toes immediately taking it to Wilder. Secondly, I think AJ catches Wilder first and knocks him out because his ring IQ and boxing ability is much higher, that fight wouldn't be going 12 rounds.

"AJ ducked Wilder..." No he didn't. It's not even up for debate anymore. Why did Wilder's team ex communicate Lou DiBella for getting Wilder to that DAZN meeting where they offered a 125m multi-fight deal? Why did Wilder admit he was offered more money to fight AJ? The $50m offer from the PBC side before it was a ruse, they knew AJ couldn't fight on BT(due to his Sky contract) and that's where half the money was coming from. Why else wouldn't they even send a contract over? Sending a contract is the bare minimum you'd expect when someone asks for it and they wouldn't do it. His manager Finkle is quoted as saying "He's just a baby" when people asked if he was going to fight Wlad(who knocked him out cold in sparring with headgear on) despite being a world champion with 35 or so fights to his name at the time. His resume and how he was moved carefully up the ranks points to him being a protected fighter(it's what the PBC do). Wilder ducked AJ and he ducked Whyte for that matter too.

Make it make sense to me, how a fitter, hungrier Wlad(Fury's best win) is worth so much less for AJ, than it is for Fury? He fought him in his backyard? Germany was just his adopted back yard, he is Ukrainian. That is easily offset by AJ being far less experienced when he took that Wlad fight than Fury was. Not to mention AJ stopped Wlad, so that removes the "home judges" argument. Wlad was udefeated? No he wasn't, more than that, Wlad always came back strong from a loss. For the rest, I've been through it, 3 training camps in 18 months(the normal rate for Wlad, fighting twice a year). He was about to turn 40 when Fury faced him(4 months) and had just turned 41 when AJ fought him(1 month earlier). The idea that he got old over night is BS peddled by Fury fans, he was better in the AJ fight and visibly in better shape. In fact, in both fights, he was in better shape than most 35 year old HW's.

Whyte(more experienced as a pro than AJ at the time, had a win over him in the amateurs), Parker(Whyte nearly got stopped in that last round), Wlad, Povetkin(younger than Wlad when Fury faced him, showed how dangerous he was against Whyte), Pulev(schooled Chisora with his boxing, who's used as some kind of measuring stick by too many these days... same age as Wlad when Fury fought him) , Ruiz Jr(beat Parker in many peoples eyes despite not getting the decision in New Zealand for the vacant WBO).

Take any of Fury's wins outside of Wlad and Wilder and AJ's best 5 wins are worth more than anything on Fury's resume. In terms of rankings of opponents when they fought, it's even more in AJ's favour, Breazeale(voluntary) was undefeated and top 10 when AJ beat him if I remember right, Takam was top 10 with the IBF and a mandatary when AJ beat him. All you're doing is making excuses to tear down every oponent AJ has faced but I could tear Fury's resume down much easier with the same standards. As for Wilder's resume, even you must know that's not worth discussing(it's poor).
 
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Looked an easy win just watching it, but half expected Usyk to get robbed, however the score cards were fairer than expected.

After the Chisora fight I expected a comfortable win for Joshua, but Usyk to take all the belts in his 3rd HW fight is an amazing feat.
 
What a performance from Usyk last night the man is an absolute machine! Possibly the best I've ever seen his head movement, footwork, timing of shots he's porn of the boxing world, Had the luxury of seen him in the flesh against Bellew thankfully!

I was 100% convinced he would beat Joshua last night and boy did he put on a show, Joshua got his arse handed to him he's nothing but a big shit static robot.
I'd say Tyson Fury was raging last night watching it too, I hope this puts the whole Joshua v Fury debate to bed now once and for all, Joshua shouldn't be named in the same bracket as Fury! Fury would take the piss out of Joshua for 12 rounds completely go to town on him.

Anyway, I hope Usyk takes over now he's capable of beating absolutely anybody he fears nobody and rightly so.

GET IN USYK!
 
AJ loses rematch as well, he did absolutely nothing effective

very worrying McCraken after round 10 saying “ just stay steady behind your jab “

everyone knew he was Mike behind on the cards and should be getting read the riot act “ you’re gonna lose your title if you don’t knock him out “

AJ not willing to take a couple to get in and make his size count, tried to simply box a better boxer with over 300 amateur fights

dillian Whyte gives Usyk a lot more problems than AJ
That point about the poor advice during the fight from Joshua’s team in the corner was what struck me too. Kept giving him specific technical advice, which is fine as far as it goes (except it wasn’t working), but nothing about the bigger picture aka you need to stop him here, you’re behind.
 
That point about the poor advice during the fight from Joshua’s team in the corner was what struck me too. Kept giving him specific technical advice, which is fine as far as it goes (except it wasn’t working), but nothing about the bigger picture aka you need to stop him here, you’re behind.
Absolutely shocking advice in Joshua corner for the entire night, Poor night all round from Joshua and his team, Tactics for the fight from round 1 onwards along with poor advice all night.
I genuinely don't think Joshua couldn't get a stoppage from round 10 onwards he had absolutely nothing left in the tank and could of easily been stopped himself.
 
Absolutely shocking advice in Joshua corner for the entire night, Poor night all round from Joshua and his team, Tactics for the fight from round 1 onwards along with poor advice all night.
I genuinely don't think Joshua couldn't get a stoppage from round 10 onwards he had absolutely nothing left in the tank and could of easily been stopped himself.
Agreed mate - but he should at least have been told that was where things were at.
But yeah, poor advice all night.
 
Wilder was only picked to beat Fury because Fury was out of shape. The whole reason that fight happened. Wlad was picked to beat AJ too and there's not a name on Fury's resume that AJ wouldn't beat either. You don't get to where AJ got to without having something special at the speed he did it(faster than Fury and he boxed since 10 years old).

AJ has unified titles, defended multiple times against mandataries. Fury is yet to do either. He beat Wlad, ducked the rematch, came back had a few tune-ups and fought a protected hype job with one good punch. Since coming back the only fights of note he's had are Wilder and Otto Wallin(AJ's old sparring partner for the Charles Martin fight) who caused him more problems than he should have(other fighters would have been slated for that).

Usyk beats Fury IMO. When has Fury ever been in with someone with better footwork than him and faster hands? He's not outboxing Usyk and he's definitely not knocking him out. He wont take that fight, he'll downplay it, he wasn't even going to fight AJ IMO.
Agree with a lot this but I think Fury could cause Usyk more problems. Fury would be clinching him and leaning on him, think it would be difficult for Usyk to to combat that for 12 rounds.

If people want to see why boxers are so concerned about losing, read this thread. A lot of boxing fans see losses as some incurable career disease, not forgetting the best boxers like SRR or Ali all had losses. This idea that as soon as you lose you are terrible boxer who is unbelievably shit has to change. I blame Mayweather for it personally!!!
 
Agree with a lot this but I think Fury could cause Usyk more problems. Fury would be clinching him and leaning on him, think it would be difficult for Usyk to to combat that for 12 rounds.

If people want to see why boxers are so concerned about losing, read this thread. A lot of boxing fans see losses as some incurable career disease, not forgetting the best boxers like SRR or Ali all had losses. This idea that as soon as you lose you are terrible boxer who is unbelievably shit has to change. I blame Mayweather for it personally!!!
Yeah that's true, the "somebodies 0's gotta go" started in Floyd's era. You'd think the newtworks and promotional companies would have cottoned on that people have lost interest in the sport because of it. Instead, Mayweather's former manager(Al Haymon) started a Boxer-events management company(The PBC) that has made protecting fighters part of their ethos. Instead of giving the fans the fights they want to see, they want to instead do things in house as much as possible. Then they try and make those the fights people want to see via hype tactics(hence their poor PPV performances). When people complain about not getting the fights they want to see, they play a game by using the media to suggest the other fighter is ducking wherever possible. They tried that with Crawford vs Spence for as long as they could but now everybody can see what's really going on. More recently, they had people believing Canelo was ducking Plant. The only surprise is that deal finally got done after walking away from it twice. Lets just hope nobody(cough-plant-cough) has to pull out because I'm looking forward to that.

Today, people are acting like AJ is finished. Even those who predicted Usyk to win because he's a great boxer. After Usyk did win, it's almost as if any other top 10 heavyweight would walk right through him with the energy they are bringing to AJ. AJ losing to a great boxer doesn't suddenly mean he's average, he still beats most if not all of the rest.

As for Fury, I'm not so sure clinching and leaning would be enough to deal with Usyk for him, in what would be a boxing match, that goes to the cards. I don't see Fury being able to keep Usyk on the outside with the jab all fight either(moves too well, knows too much for that to work) but I don't think that fight happens anyway.
 
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I said that because of this: "I’m pretty sure you’re a big AJ fan but he basically gave up tonight"

I like AJ but that's neither here nor there since I'm a fan of both fighters. That looked a subtle attempt to suggest I'm an AJ superfan(fanboy as they are known in the boxing community). I found that rich, since you've been quite defensive of Fury, dismissing Usyk as a "a blown up Cruiserweight with an average KO record". It almost looked like you were saying Wilder was a bigger risk to his 0 than Usyk would be. I don't think Fury will fight Usyk, at least not while he has his 0 to protect. Not because he thinks he'll be knocked out by him. I just don't think he fancies his chances of being able to out box Usyk and he's not knocking him out either. I think most would rather face Wilder because he's more beatable, he's not been avoided, he's been protected. You also said "Whyte gives Usyk a lot more problems than AJ", which I also disagree with.

I think it's more strange you think I must be an AJ super fan because I think it's a silly thing to do to call AJ "average" or make out he doesn't have the heart of a fighter and that he "gave up". I like AJ but I'm a boxing fan first, I just don't like to see these false narratives and double standards. I think I pretty much called it earlier on this thread a few days before the fight, it was a lose lose for AJ. He wouldn't have got the credit if he knocked him out and people would use a loss to say he was never any good. That's pretty much what I said and the latter is exactly what some people are doing.

Criticising ranked opponents with credible boxing resumes of their own for AJ's wins, whilst rating Wilder as a massive win for Fury. If you think it's worth more that Wilder was "ranked in the top 3"(Wlad was ranked in the top 2 when AJ fought him if I remember right) without actually beating any top 10 opponents himself outside of Ortiz, who shouldn't have been ranked that high either(how is he still in any top 10? I don't get it). Isn't that double standards? Also, if you don't think the main reason AJ didn't get to Wilder first was first of all because Wilder was a protected fighter(like a lot of PBC title holders). While secondly believing, the fact that Wilder admitted he ducked AJ when he said to Fury "I was offered more money to fight AJ but I honoured my word with you" was worth anything. If you believe all that, then are in the tiny minority if you are the hardcore boxing fan you claim to be. Wilder does have a punchers chance but AJ could both outbox and knock Wilder out and he's not the only one that could do that to Wilder at HW.
Joshua is a very good fighter but last night he was beaten by a fighter who was levels above him and you are right about about fury aswell because usyk beats him easily aswell. The only way you beat usyk is by going in there and actually trying to go to war with him which again may not guarantee the win but at least you have a chance because outboxing him is not going to happen. Not very often you see elite fighters come around so make the most of it and enjoy. And don’t forget in 19 pro fights with his guy has unified cruiserweight and has 3 heavyweight belts .
 
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Read Roy Jones comments from ringside during commentary, said he’s never been impressed by AJ, despite some very selective opponents and been rocked by many. Then listed examples, was bemused as to how AJ had filled stadiums on many occasions when he actually offers little entertainment.
Fair and reasoned - to be fair to Joshua he has maximised a very lucrative career riding the crest of a wave from the Olympics and on relatively limited talent...........
 

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