The Calais problem (merged)

yorknomore said:
You mean like a camp/ghetto? hasn't that already been tried in Australia and of course in this country where civil liberty groups constantly propose to allow them out which negated the need for the camps? After reading some stories from failed attempts to control immigration the fear is brought back on themselves by their fellow immigrant inmates (Make no mistake that's what they are).
How many would you allow in? Would there be a limit would you cap it, or would you allow the flood of humanity just to land without any thought of the consequences? As for we shouldn't have bombed them or stripped away their natural resources and the inference that we are reaping what we have sown,we are not reaping anything if we just say no.
Isn't Israel a member of the international community? They should take more in surely considering they too are guilty of destabilising the region, why would a mass of people travel from the ME and park themselves in Calais, leaving their loved ones at home in danger whilst trying to gain entry to a country that quite plainly doesn't want them?
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There are allegedly 5,000 people in those camps. It is not a flood, not even a trickle. Are you honestly saying was as country could not sort them out? Those 5,000 pale into insignificance when more than 3,000 were rescued by German and Italian ships in just two days last week. Italy has taken more than 60,000 refugees in the first six months of this year alone. Germany took 175,000 asylum seekers last year. It is not an inference that is what is happening. It is there in Calais.
Do you or we know where they are from? it seems they are from places as diverse as Afghanistan, Iran, Vietnam, Kurdistan, Palestine, Iraq, Somalia, Egypt, Sudan, Eritrea and Ethiopia, with the East African communities the larger at present. So it is not just an ME problem.
No not a camp ghetto there has to be a bettersolution and i am not going to pretend i have the solution but there are far cleverer minds out there that can work through those areas.
 
KenTheLandlord said:
There are allegedly 5,000 people in those camps. It is not a flood, not even a trickle. Are you honestly saying was as country could not sort them out? Those 5,000 pale into insignificance when more than 3,000 were rescued by German and Italian ships in just two days last week. Italy has taken more than 60,000 refugees in the first six months of this year alone. Germany took 175,000 asylum seekers last year. It is not an inference that is what is happening. It is there in Calais.
Do you or we know where they are from? it seems they are from places as diverse as Afghanistan, Iran, Vietnam, Kurdistan, Palestine, Iraq, Somalia, Egypt, Sudan, Eritrea and Ethiopia, with the East African communities the larger at present. So it is not just an ME problem.
No not a camp ghetto there has to be a bettersolution and i am not going to pretend i have the solution but there are far cleverer minds out there that can work through those areas.
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The trickle would become a flood and the question still is,why did they park here at our door what's up with France or any other country they have come through? Now I understand you could be one of those advocates of free movement and all we need is to love everyone and have no passports but not everyone is like that, I like the feeling of safety where I live knowing we are not just allowing thousands of people into this country when we don't know who they are, I would suggest it's a no from the majority too.

In 2002 we as a nation admitted 84.000 asylum applications and since then it has been on the decline as well it should be, using Germany as an example doesn't mean much, in real terms as an asylum seeker you don't just get to choose your country you should seek asylum in the first safe country you land in or go through. this discussion is veering ever near the "Let's build 10 new cities" because if they want to come let them come and we know how that suggestion was welcomed.

If the asylum seekers/migrants are not going to tell us where they are from then we wouldn't have records of their actual nationality so all you have to go by is how they look because they wont admit to being a certain nationality will they? I however agree there has to be a better solution but that solution isn't allowing them in because more and more would come and it can't be setting up camps on an island somewhere because it would be Dog eat Dog there would be riots murders and god knows what, and of course the solution doesn't have to be just our problem it would have to be a consensus by the westernised countries as to what to do about immigration/asylum but in the meantime keep these people out and keep any others out trying to enter the UK in this fashion.
 
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KenTheLandlord said:
That is a pretty big jump in an assumption. We have no way of knowing.
Maybe MES has some ideas on how to integrate those people.
Starting them off with somewhere to sleep, eat, shower and treat them as humans. Then maybe have them in a education centre and help them learn English, unless they speak it well enough already. See what qualifications they have. I bet a pound to a pinch of shit there will be plenty of educated people there. After say 6 months of figuring them out and explaining life in Britain, some may want to go home. I would rather be fuckin miserable in the sun. Others may well be ok and see that they have been treated well and respond in kind. Not all countries have the social problems we have.

Just throwing a few out there its 1.30 :)
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Well I was not fleeing England for humanitarian reasons, but because I married a Yank.
It took 9 months from entering the country / getting married to receiving my (temporary) green card and I had to provide evidence before being allowed into the US that either I had the funds to support myself or my wife to be had the funds to support me. During this time I could not claim a sausage. Not even a vegetarian one.
 
they have already reached europe and the promised land

makes you wonder why they are so desperate to come to our little island

why not make a life in french france instead......

time for us to reclaim Calais and show the frogs how it should be done
 
BigJoe#1 said:
Really??? If this is the case what is the problem? Why don't they do it if it will give them what they want?

These people, you see them in news broadcasts, are not asylum seekers in fear of their lives. There is no place for them in this country and we should be deporting them back to their homelands without even contemplating giving them asylum.

If they were genuine asylum seekers they would do as you suggest and apply at the first opportunity.
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correct. they are here to exploit our welfare system. nothing more nothing less.
 
Balti said:
they have already reached europe and the promised land

makes you wonder why they are so desperate to come to our little island

why not make a life in french france instead......

time for us to reclaim Calais and show the frogs how it should be done
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Not just Calais. We owned most of Northern France at one point whilst a 3000 strong army laid waste to the rest of France.

Hold on...there's 3000 immigrants. Sign them up and unleash the dogs of war.
 
There are so many myths on both sides left and right that perpetuate the argument and make it typical politics and not a genuine idea to solve.

Above All people should be honest that countries like the UK, US and Aus can take more people and cope with them. But the reality is they can't take them and maintain a similar standard of living, Health and education. So the question is never about being over run or swamped it is about whether a countries people are prepared to sacrifice part of their standard of living to another group of people who are worse off. There is no right and wrong on this but this is the true debate. Go to Shanghai or Mumbai or Guangzhou etc or Holland or Tokyo - most of Europe could take higher populations but not without sacrifice.

Then there is the argument that refugees should stay at the first country they are safe, how do countries like Jordan who have 2 million in refugee camps survive without themselves imploding into IS style rebellion if left to take the slack, if the wealthy put the burden on them country by country the problem will spread deeper and faster. So everyone has to act but all choose to do it alone, Australia wants it to be Indonesia's problem, the UK wants it to be France's problem working alone will only worsen the problem.

So there is a big issue something needs to be done but I think people should be honest about what the debate really is.

Also to say someone leaving their family to go and try to get somewhere and get money is wrong. In many cases they leave to make very dangerous journeys they would not want their kids to undertake to try and find a home and make money. That could equally be a very brave noble act of sacrifice in many cases as equally as it could be evilly running off to look after yourself.

My view is there is a very entitled view by many in the west that our own lifestyles need to be maintained at the cost of lives of people less fortunate and in many cases we don't give a sh@t if people live in hell as long as we can pretend it's not happening and maintain our own lives.
 
Bill said:
correct. they are here to exploit our welfare system. nothing more nothing less.
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Mad Eyed Screamer said:
When I received my visa to live in the States, I had to sign that I understood I would not be able to get benefits of any kind once I enter the country.
Do the same to those in Calais. Allow them to enter, but they have to understand there are no benefits... housing, dole, health care. They have to be self sufficient and contributing before they reap the access to the health care system.
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the problem is homeless people, starving people , sick people can have a far more costly effect on society than when on benefits. What do you do when disease, crime, illegal work for cash and all the other problems that this would bring have a cost double or treble that of the money saved. the reason why the poverty that existed in Victorian England was tackled was not just altruism but also about self preservation a diseased, poverty ridden underclass did not end because of a pricked concisence.

It would be wonderful if we could treat asylum seekers like full economic migrants but I suspect when you went to the US as when intent to aus, you had savings, possessions, we're ready to work and had skills, had a place to stay etc etc. I am not sure it can work for someone who may not have a bed for the night or money for a meal?

I think that a big solution is needed
 
This nonsense about 'We bombed their countries' so that's why they come here, is total crap. We have not, to my knowledge, bombed Ethiopia, Iran, Somalia, Eritrea, Vietnam, Pakistan, Bangladesh, The Congo, Nigeria, Sudan, Chad, and many other countries where these people hail from. The vast majority are young men, many carrying knives and other weapons, who see this country as a soft touch, as they know, if they can get here by any means possible, the chances of deportation are low, with a myriad of appeals paid by legal aid dragging out a process that can and does take years.
The main problem is the EU's ridiculous, and now proving dangerous, insistence on a 'No Borders' policy, which has allowed anyone and everyone who enters the area free access to anywhere they might fancy going to. Prior to this nonsense, checks on passports, eligibility etc; were made by each country, it would have been incredibly difficult to travel from the far end of Europe to here, passing through numerous countries, without being stopped, and in the case of illegal immigrants, arrested.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
This nonsense about 'We bombed their countries' so that's why they come here, is total crap. We have not, to my knowledge, bombed Ethiopia, Iran, Somalia, Eritrea, Vietnam, Pakistan, Bangladesh, The Congo, Nigeria, Sudan, Chad, and many other countries where these people hail from. The vast majority are young men, many carrying knives and other weapons, who see this country as a soft touch, as they know, if they can get here by any means possible, the chances of deportation are low, with a myriad of appeals paid by legal aid dragging out a process that can and does take years.
The main problem is the EU's ridiculous, and now proving dangerous, insistence on a 'No Borders' policy, which has allowed anyone and everyone who enters the area free access to anywhere they might fancy going to. Prior to this nonsense, checks on passports, eligibility etc; were made by each country, it would have been incredibly difficult to travel from the far end of Europe to here, passing through numerous countries, without being stopped, and in the case of illegal immigrants, arrested.
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Nail on head. I saw a few of the ones trying to cling to lorry's openly admit they want to get here because of our generous welfare system. They know once their feet touch our soil they will be protected by human rights laws, European laws etc and it will be next to impossible to shift them. Just look how long it took us to get rid of Abu Hamza who had terrorist links so we don't have a snowballs chance in hell of moving on these people.

Several posters seem to think we have plenty of space for these people but I made a post about the real knock on effects they will have. The NHS, housing, schools, transport, public services all things already creaking will come crumbling down. We are up to our eye balls in debt and are slowly trying to get the country going again after the economic crisis the last thing we need is this. France need to get their house in order or we should send people to do it for them.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
There are so many myths on both sides left and right that perpetuate the argument and make it typical politics and not a genuine idea to solve.

Above All people should be honest that countries like the UK, US and Aus can take more people and cope with them. But the reality is they can't take them and maintain a similar standard of living, Health and education. So the question is never about being over run or swamped it is about whether a countries people are prepared to sacrifice part of their standard of living to another group of people who are worse off. There is no right and wrong on this but this is the true debate. Go to Shanghai or Mumbai or Guangzhou etc or Holland or Tokyo - most of Europe could take higher populations but not without sacrifice.

Then there is the argument that refugees should stay at the first country they are safe, how do countries like Jordan who have 2 million in refugee camps survive without themselves imploding into IS style rebellion if left to take the slack, if the wealthy put the burden on them country by country the problem will spread deeper and faster. So everyone has to act but all choose to do it alone, Australia wants it to be Indonesia's problem, the UK wants it to be France's problem working alone will only worsen the problem.

So there is a big issue something needs to be done but I think people should be honest about what the debate really is.

Also to say someone leaving their family to go and try to get somewhere and get money is wrong. In many cases they leave to make very dangerous journeys they would not want their kids to undertake to try and find a home and make money. That could equally be a very brave noble act of sacrifice in many cases as equally as it could be evilly running off to look after yourself.

My view is there is a very entitled view by many in the west that our own lifestyles need to be maintained at the cost of lives of people less fortunate and in many cases we don't give a sh@t if people live in hell as long as we can pretend it's not happening and maintain our own lives.
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The entitled view I hold has developed since I had kids. I now care about the schools, health service, how far our taxes can go, etc. I also have seen my nephews struggle to get lowend jobs. I want them to start off in life well but the opportunity to show you'll work your bollox off isn't even there.

A society can only be stretched so much. Therefore as hard as it is you need borders. Not just for non EU people though. It's that preference that's not fair. A visa system like the us has is perfectly valid.

But our governments have no balls so we just do what idiots in Germany theorize about and end up with a mess.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
This nonsense about 'We bombed their countries' so that's why they come here, is total crap. We have not, to my knowledge, bombed Ethiopia, Iran, Somalia, Eritrea, Vietnam, Pakistan, Bangladesh, The Congo, Nigeria, Sudan, Chad, and many other countries where these people hail from. The vast majority are young men, many carrying knives and other weapons, who see this country as a soft touch, as they know, if they can get here by any means possible, the chances of deportation are low, with a myriad of appeals paid by legal aid dragging out a process that can and does take years.
The main problem is the EU's ridiculous, and now proving dangerous, insistence on a 'No Borders' policy, which has allowed anyone and everyone who enters the area free access to anywhere they might fancy going to. Prior to this nonsense, checks on passports, eligibility etc; were made by each country, it would have been incredibly difficult to travel from the far end of Europe to here, passing through numerous countries, without being stopped, and in the case of illegal immigrants, arrested.
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You are right it is not mainly about where we bomb that's a furfee.

But being completely honest how many of those countries would you want your kids to grow up in? If you lived in a refugee camp with your kids knowing you are likely to be there for decades with them likely to never get an education or a job, knowing disease is an ever present threat and knowing every day they are at risk would you a) say fair cop I am fairly safe it's a fair cop I am going to respect international rules and sign away their lives or b) get off your arse and do whatever it takes to try and make a better life for your kids?

Why on earth in that boat would you put the sensibilities of a wealthy far away nation over your own kids lives?

As for economic migrancy why is that not a reasonable aim if that means health, education and a future for your children?

Let's just be honest and say we have a nice life and don't want to share instead of pretending it's a moral stance and it is what is right. Let's stop pretending it's an evil thing to try and hope for a better life and look after yourself and family whatever it takes
 
TonyM said:
The entitled view I hold has developed since I had kids. I now care about the schools, health service, how far our taxes can go, etc. I also have seen my nephews struggle to get lowend jobs. I want them to start off in life well but the opportunity to show you'll work your bollox off isn't even there.

A society can only be stretched so much. Therefore as hard as it is you need borders. Not just for non EU people though. It's that preference that's not fair. A visa system like the us has is perfectly valid.

But our governments have no balls so we just do what idiots in Germany theorize about and end up with a mess.
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And I don't pretend to be any different to you, but society can stretch travel to a lot of places and you will see , though life is not as good and that's the point. We want our kids to have better than we have whilst in other pets of the world people have less than our great great grandparents .

As for borders China or India are many times if the EU and don't have internal borders so this is only an issue if you look at it from a nation state point of view rather than a humanity point of view, which is undoubtably how most do.
 
As much as I am in favour of immigration, it does need regulating and if people are specifically choosing to enter this country then they should be able to provide for this country as well, with adequate skills/education and records of who they are and where they are from.
if non then as hard as it is to say - fuck 'em.

I personally don't want to be living amongst possible convicts from other countries, escaping here whilst changing their identities.
Who are they?

In his country I'm recorded everywhere, any job I go for, anything, all my DBS/CRB is checked, my qualifications are all checked, ID, references from people who are also British, with a National Insurance Number.

Seeing how fucking easy many people fresh off the boat can get jobs does irritate me especially when myself I find it quite hard getting jobs.

Maybe I should just fuck it and change my name to Boris Abramovich and say I'm Russian, I escaped after serving in the army, I'm an hard grafter, willing to work... Great CV :D
Gets me a job straight away... my broken russian accent isn't too accurate though.
 
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