The Conservative Party

[BobKowalski]

I’ve quoted your post Mike but I’ll also address Russ’s posts here as well.

@Rascal , I do agree with you. There is an element of brazenness about this government that needs to be sorted out. We have real issues that need real solutions not them spending time defending or denying shit like this. We don’t pay them to be on the take and we don’t pay them to spend their time defending it.

I’m not blinkered. There is good and bad in all our politics irrespective of them being “left” or “right”, that’s good people and good policies. I doubt any of us can look at the parties we vote for and say yeah I agree 100% with everything and they’ve not missed anything off the list. I certainly can’t and it makes the case for proportional representation (to be fair I voted against that but do regret not considering it more robustly now).

So let’s agree that their are bad apples in politics - naturally the light falls primarily on the tories and labour as the largest parties over the years but I bet if we went digging we’d find others including the SNP. But these bad apples are breeching the rules - they know what they are doing is wrong they just hope they don’t get caught. Perhaps MPs and members of the Lords should be forced to open their bank accounts to scrutiny so any payments must be seen - and it should carry a custodial sentence if they hide anything. Right now they seem to get what a 30 day ban? which is a joke of a deterrent and really says to me they’ve never been serious about fixing the problem.

Next (and the story currently breaking) is those that earn (sometimes vast amounts) doing something they are (they claim) entitled to do under the rules. This is much harder, should Teresa May not be able to earn £80k a speech? Should Jess Phillips not have earned well in excess of £100k for two books? Let’s face it neither of these two would be earning that if they were regular folk - no one would be interested in what they had to say or write; so the fact they are a politician and former PM has allowed them to earn more. Then we look at the murky world of “consultancy” - again these people are only being employed for 2 reasons, firstly (and most likely) to give some guidance on how to get things done to business (again nothing wrong with this) and secondly for kudos. On the first point is there much wrong with this? I muted putting in an application for an extension, I was matey with one of the guys on the planning committee and I happened to mention it when they were round one night (just for conversation - honestly). He then told me the sort of things I need to include to have any chance of success. In the end I didn’t go ahead and it a bit of a grey area in my mind. It’s not like he said bung me £5k and I’ll get it sorted but he did provide advice that I’d not have known about otherwise. There is of course the third option of influencing policy which is much rarer but that goes back to my earlier point that it should be a criminal offence with time in the big house. Of course the focus is going to be on Cox because of the vast sums involved - good I say, scrutinise him.

So what can we do? If we decide to put a blanket ban on having any outside paid work then that stops Kier Starmer being able to claim fair expenses for the free work he has done, or the doctor needing to keep her registration up. To allow it they’ll create loopholes in the legislation and that will be exploited by people who will say “but I’ve not broken the rules” and we are back to square one.

Expenses are still a scandal in my eyes. Just looking at Jess Philips again (and only because I’d found this when looking for her book earnings, I will easily be able to find similar for any number of MPs). She employs her husband on a chunky salary, a year or so ago was claiming she can’t afford a printer and so puts in £4K of travel expenses which will include going to her mother in laws to print stuff because that is where the printer is she uses. I mean come on!!! Like I say it’s not a bash Jess day it’s that despite the furore on expenses some are still up to their necks in it.

We deserve better and there are good MPs out there or do everything by the book so we don’t need to throw the baby out with the bath water we just need them to get their own houses in order - hopefully we will shine a light on it all and some real/ meaningful change will happen not the lip service we’ve had in the past. I won’t hold my breath mind, the tories will hope this will all go away so will dither and there will be some notable silence from the opposition benches.

And in the meantime, on here, it will continue be tories this and tories that like theirs is the only shit that smells.

The issue is the PM accepting ‘gifts’ ie bribes, and trying to undermine the standards committees guilty verdict on a mate. People trying to fiddle the system is one thing. A PM trying to undermine the scrutiny and oversight of the system is a much bigger issue.

MP’s acting as paid lobbyists for industries to push contracts their way is a bigger issue than employing a spouse or even Cox with his two home fiddle. MP’s should be be allowed to fund office staff, they shouldn’t be allowed to employ relatives. It’s an easy fix. The executive and PM undermining the system and the rules that govern it is a much bigger threat.

 

[BobKowalski]

I’ve quoted your post Mike but I’ll also address Russ’s posts here as well.

@Rascal , I do agree with you. There is an element of brazenness about this government that needs to be sorted out. We have real issues that need real solutions not them spending time defending or denying shit like this. We don’t pay them to be on the take and we don’t pay them to spend their time defending it.

I’m not blinkered. There is good and bad in all our politics irrespective of them being “left” or “right”, that’s good people and good policies. I doubt any of us can look at the parties we vote for and say yeah I agree 100% with everything and they’ve not missed anything off the list. I certainly can’t and it makes the case for proportional representation (to be fair I voted against that but do regret not considering it more robustly now).

So let’s agree that their are bad apples in politics - naturally the light falls primarily on the tories and labour as the largest parties over the years but I bet if we went digging we’d find others including the SNP. But these bad apples are breeching the rules - they know what they are doing is wrong they just hope they don’t get caught. Perhaps MPs and members of the Lords should be forced to open their bank accounts to scrutiny so any payments must be seen - and it should carry a custodial sentence if they hide anything. Right now they seem to get what a 30 day ban? which is a joke of a deterrent and really says to me they’ve never been serious about fixing the problem.

Next (and the story currently breaking) is those that earn (sometimes vast amounts) doing something they are (they claim) entitled to do under the rules. This is much harder, should Teresa May not be able to earn £80k a speech? Should Jess Phillips not have earned well in excess of £100k for two books? Let’s face it neither of these two would be earning that if they were regular folk - no one would be interested in what they had to say or write; so the fact they are a politician and former PM has allowed them to earn more. Then we look at the murky world of “consultancy” - again these people are only being employed for 2 reasons, firstly (and most likely) to give some guidance on how to get things done to business (again nothing wrong with this) and secondly for kudos. On the first point is there much wrong with this? I muted putting in an application for an extension, I was matey with one of the guys on the planning committee and I happened to mention it when they were round one night (just for conversation - honestly). He then told me the sort of things I need to include to have any chance of success. In the end I didn’t go ahead and it a bit of a grey area in my mind. It’s not like he said bung me £5k and I’ll get it sorted but he did provide advice that I’d not have known about otherwise. There is of course the third option of influencing policy which is much rarer but that goes back to my earlier point that it should be a criminal offence with time in the big house. Of course the focus is going to be on Cox because of the vast sums involved - good I say, scrutinise him.

So what can we do? If we decide to put a blanket ban on having any outside paid work then that stops Kier Starmer being able to claim fair expenses for the free work he has done, or the doctor needing to keep her registration up. To allow it they’ll create loopholes in the legislation and that will be exploited by people who will say “but I’ve not broken the rules” and we are back to square one.

Expenses are still a scandal in my eyes. Just looking at Jess Philips again (and only because I’d found this when looking for her book earnings, I will easily be able to find similar for any number of MPs). She employs her husband on a chunky salary, a year or so ago was claiming she can’t afford a printer and so puts in £4K of travel expenses which will include going to her mother in laws to print stuff because that is where the printer is she uses. I mean come on!!! Like I say it’s not a bash Jess day it’s that despite the furore on expenses some are still up to their necks in it.

We deserve better and there are good MPs out there or do everything by the book so we don’t need to throw the baby out with the bath water we just need them to get their own houses in order - hopefully we will shine a light on it all and some real/ meaningful change will happen not the lip service we’ve had in the past. I won’t hold my breath mind, the tories will hope this will all go away so will dither and there will be some notable silence from the opposition benches.

And in the meantime, on here, it will continue be tories this and tories that like theirs is the only shit that smells.

I also enjoyed you focusing on a female Labour MP when there are 45 male Tory MP’s who employ their spouse or partner. (source: The Independent).

 

[metalblue]

Fair comment, but the matter of scale and influence needs to be taken into account.
Comparing Phillips making a few grand writing a book in her spare time whose sales benefit from her position is not really comparable to government departments handing massive contracts worth hundreds of millions to the minister's mates because they've bunged a few million at them for "consultancy" work.

They're both wrong but it's like comparing murder to parking on double yellows.

I agree with the scale and influence point, it’s very valid. Anyone who has handed out contracts to someone based on paid for consultancy should be in prison. It’s that bit in between where no specific wrongdoing is seen but it smells a bit funny that is going to cause most problems (and has already on the PPE stuff for example). They’d have to be a bit of an idiot to get themselves in to some of these situations, or worse just don’t care how it looks.

 

[metalblue]

The issue is the PM accepting ‘gifts’ ie bribes, and trying to undermine the standards committees guilty verdict on a mate. People trying to fiddle the system is one thing. A PM trying to undermine the scrutiny and oversight of the system is a much bigger issue.

MP’s acting as paid lobbyists for industries to push contracts their way is a bigger issue than employing a spouse or even Cox with his two home fiddle. MP’s should be be allowed to fund office staff, they shouldn’t be allowed to employ relatives. It’s an easy fix. The executive and PM undermining the system and the rules that govern it is a much bigger threat.

The issue certainly stems from the PM trying to change the rules. He’s an idiot and at no point have I tried to defend his actions, and nor would I. And it’s not the first time he’s tried to fuck around with parliamentary process either now is it?

 

[metalblue]

I also enjoyed you focusing on a female Labour MP when there are 45 male Tory MP’s who employ their spouse or partner. (source: The Independent).

Ah good old whatabouterry. Should she be extempt from scrutiny because she is a female or labour MP? Which would kind of smack of double standards really wouldn’t it based on your recent posts.

Unless you are trying to imply I am sexist… otherwise what does being female have to do with owt?

 

[Mike D]

I’ve quoted your post Mike but I’ll also address Russ’s posts here as well.

@Rascal , I do agree with you. There is an element of brazenness about this government that needs to be sorted out. We have real issues that need real solutions not them spending time defending or denying shit like this. We don’t pay them to be on the take and we don’t pay them to spend their time defending it.

I’m not blinkered. There is good and bad in all our politics irrespective of them being “left” or “right”, that’s good people and good policies. I doubt any of us can look at the parties we vote for and say yeah I agree 100% with everything and they’ve not missed anything off the list. I certainly can’t and it makes the case for proportional representation (to be fair I voted against that but do regret not considering it more robustly now).

So let’s agree that their are bad apples in politics - naturally the light falls primarily on the tories and labour as the largest parties over the years but I bet if we went digging we’d find others including the SNP. But these bad apples are breeching the rules - they know what they are doing is wrong they just hope they don’t get caught. Perhaps MPs and members of the Lords should be forced to open their bank accounts to scrutiny so any payments must be seen - and it should carry a custodial sentence if they hide anything. Right now they seem to get what a 30 day ban? which is a joke of a deterrent and really says to me they’ve never been serious about fixing the problem.

Next (and the story currently breaking) is those that earn (sometimes vast amounts) doing something they are (they claim) entitled to do under the rules. This is much harder, should Teresa May not be able to earn £80k a speech? Should Jess Phillips not have earned well in excess of £100k for two books? Let’s face it neither of these two would be earning that if they were regular folk - no one would be interested in what they had to say or write; so the fact they are a politician and former PM has allowed them to earn more. Then we look at the murky world of “consultancy” - again these people are only being employed for 2 reasons, firstly (and most likely) to give some guidance on how to get things done to business (again nothing wrong with this) and secondly for kudos. On the first point is there much wrong with this? I muted putting in an application for an extension, I was matey with one of the guys on the planning committee and I happened to mention it when they were round one night (just for conversation - honestly). He then told me the sort of things I need to include to have any chance of success. In the end I didn’t go ahead and it a bit of a grey area in my mind. It’s not like he said bung me £5k and I’ll get it sorted but he did provide advice that I’d not have known about otherwise. There is of course the third option of influencing policy which is much rarer but that goes back to my earlier point that it should be a criminal offence with time in the big house. Of course the focus is going to be on Cox because of the vast sums involved - good I say, scrutinise him.

So what can we do? If we decide to put a blanket ban on having any outside paid work then that stops Kier Starmer being able to claim fair expenses for the free work he has done, or the doctor needing to keep her registration up. To allow it they’ll create loopholes in the legislation and that will be exploited by people who will say “but I’ve not broken the rules” and we are back to square one.

Expenses are still a scandal in my eyes. Just looking at Jess Philips again (and only because I’d found this when looking for her book earnings, I will easily be able to find similar for any number of MPs). She employs her husband on a chunky salary, a year or so ago was claiming she can’t afford a printer and so puts in £4K of travel expenses which will include going to her mother in laws to print stuff because that is where the printer is she uses. I mean come on!!! Like I say it’s not a bash Jess day it’s that despite the furore on expenses some are still up to their necks in it.

We deserve better and there are good MPs out there or do everything by the book so we don’t need to throw the baby out with the bath water we just need them to get their own houses in order - hopefully we will shine a light on it all and some real/ meaningful change will happen not the lip service we’ve had in the past. I won’t hold my breath mind, the tories will hope this will all go away so will dither and there will be some notable silence from the opposition benches.

And in the meantime, on here, it will continue be tories this and tories that like theirs is the only shit that smells.

Two wrong don't make a right and all that, but isn't it funny how there seems to be much more tories who are being caught?
Here's a list of MP's currently under investigation

Mr Daniel Kawczynski Tory
Rt Hon James Cleverly Tory
Rt Hon Thérèse Coffey MP Tory
Ms Jo Stevens MP Lab
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger M Tory
Mr David Warburton MP Tory
Mr Barry Gardiner MP Lab

So out of 7 MP's currently under investigation there's 5 Con v 2 Lab?
To take your pun the shit all smells the same but its more than likely tory shit that you're smelling because there's more of them shitting in the pot.

Interestingly
Twenty-four MPs who voted to overhaul Parliament’s standards system are either under current investigation by its commissioner or have had allegations upheld against them since the 2019 General Election.

But lets not split hairs about this.

 

[Saddleworth2]

One of liar Johnsons schoolmasters wrote this about him:

' I think he honestly believes that it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation that binds everyone else.’

Even at school age you instantly recognise the 'rules dont apply to me' mentality that has infected this government.

Lead by Johnson himself, Priti Patel, Raab, Reese Mogg, Cox, Cummings and the rest, have all been found guilty of actions that would previously lead to resignations or sackings. They are the very definition of corrupt. (dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power). This lot will try and retain power at all costs and if anything or anybody tries to stop them rules will be broken, laws rewritten or titles and wealth proffered.

There is a direction of travel. The Media is already pretty much a propaganda arm of the Tory party.
What next? Continued subversion of The Judiciary? Armed Forces? Police? Health Service? Education? all targets to ensure a retention of power within a self appointed elite. Just give them a couple more terms and their work will be complete.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

They should be followed to the spirit not the letter. Following to the letter is how we ended up here (with a few exceptions).

LOL .... I see what you did there ... managed to give the impression that the ''rules'' are at fault and that the Tories are capable of having a moral compass

Brilliant ... such a difficult task and you nearly got it .... not quite but nearly

 

[bluejon]

Ah good old whatabouterry. Should she be extempt from scrutiny because she is a female or labour MP? Which would kind of smack of double standards really wouldn’t it based on your recent posts.

Unless you are trying to imply I am sexist… otherwise what does being female have to do with owt?

Metalblue, you are the ultimate mr whatabouterry as demonstrated by your posts about Labour MPs. Labour aren't in government, and haven't been for over a decade, yet you're still shouting "whatabout labour", or liebour, or whatever. Anyway.....

 

[metalblue]

Two wrong don't make a right and all that, but isn't it funny how there seems to be much more tories who are being caught?
Here's a list of MP's currently under investigation

Mr Daniel Kawczynski Tory
Rt Hon James Cleverly Tory
Rt Hon Thérèse Coffey MP Tory
Ms Jo Stevens MP Lab
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger M Tory
Mr David Warburton MP Tory
Mr Barry Gardiner MP Lab

So out of 7 MP's currently under investigation there's 5 Con v 2 Lab?
To take your pun the shit all smells but its more than likely its more than likely tory shit you're smelling because there's more of them shitting in the pot.

Interestingly
Twenty-four MPs who voted to overhaul Parliament’s standards system are either under current investigation by its commissioner or have had allegations upheld against them since the 2019 General Election.

But lets not split hairs about this.

I don’t disagree that the Tories are the worst in our current episode of “MPs behaving badly” but being worst doesn’t solve the problem which has occurred again and again over the years across both our main parties. Maybe the solution isn’t more HoC rules but rather rules instilled in the parties code of conduct, it’s controllable, it doesn’t require public inquiries or whatever and can be done pretty quickly. I’m sure many MPs would prefer the procrastination of an inquiry however.

The “let’s not split hairs about this” article was an interesting read. Other than the 5 MPs (Tory) who were accused of trying to influence the judicial system (surely a matter for the courts to hand down punishment?) the others were largely *cough cough* “admin errors”. I read them all (again all tories) and thought it smacked of pretending the system catches every infraction whereas it clearly doesn’t. I guess they think we make the laws we don’t abide by them.