The Conservative Party

[robbieh]

Spain which by all measures is way poorer than the UK, charge students 800 euros a year for tuition fees.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Well that's because the scale of university entry is vastly higher than it was in the 80s when it was the preserve of a few. The debate around funding higher education is whether it ought to be funded from general taxation - in which cases taxes will have to go up significantly, or whether those go should fund it themselves. What has been abysmally handled is the idea of there being loans, when in effect they're really just a slightly higher rate of tax for university graduates, and should have been done that explicitly that way.

It isn't a matter at all of revenues being less, it's a matter of the number of students being vastly more.

Like anything, it's a choice, but all things do have to be paid for, and income tax alone is no kind of measure. The UK overall sits somewhere around the middle in European terms overall, so absolutely there could be scope for higher taxation if the electorate want it, or lower if they prefer that instead.

What is annoying is the way some try and paint this in moral terms, as though taxing and spending is inherently a matter of good versus evil. It's merely a question of trying to determine the most equitable and effective way of modest redistribution, nothing more.

The money is being spent elsewhere as well. NHS spending is up 600% in real terms since the 1960's. That's over £100bn *more*, when the entire government spending is only circa £800bn.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Spain which by all measures is way poorer than the UK, charge students 800 euros a year for tuition fees.

And everyone's rushing to those world-renowned Spanish universities are they. Oxford, Cambridge, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Caltec and er Barcelona???

Their *best* university ranks 135th on the world table. Brilliant.

 

[Henkeman]

The money is being spent elsewhere as well. NHS spending is up 600% in real terms since the 1960's. That's over £100bn *more*, when the entire government spending is only circa £800bn.

Yep.

Public spending as a proportion of GDP is about the same now as it was in the peak of the Blair years, which will probably surprise a few. After that of course, it rocketed under Brown, partly through policy and increasingly due to the financial crash after that.

What isn't the case is the narrative of evil Tories slashing to the bone, the decline in spending was down to so much of the tax revenues having to go towards funding the borrowing post that crash.

 

[urban genie]

They would. You saying health and education should be properly funded is very cliche, as your version of properly of properly funded would be very different from someone else's. When you start applying figures and means of funding to those, you have policies.

My point is some people wouldn't want health and education properly funded, they would expect people to sort it out themselves and private enterprise to supply it, if you could not afford it then tough tits to you.

For me a civil society should provide 5 basic things to it's citizens

• Health care free and avialable
• Education
• Basic utilities at affordable levels, water, sewage management, public transport, power.
• Affordablw accomodation (a roof over everyoneshead)
• Security - policing, fire services and a defense force.

Add to that we should be embracing a collective international camaraderie for the betterment of the planet not individual self interest , but that's for another thread.

 

[Henkeman]

Spain which by all measures is way poorer than the UK, charge students 800 euros a year for tuition fees.

Aside from the point about the quality of their universities, they also have a youth unemployment rate of 33%.

 

[robbieh]

And everyone's rushing to those world-renowned Spanish universities are they. Oxford, Cambridge, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Caltec and er Barcelona???

Their *best* university ranks 135th on the world table. Brilliant.

OK not impressed by their universities.

Homeless figures
UK. 307,000
Spain 40,000

Put that in your Tory pipe and smoke it.

 

[CityStu]

My point is some people wouldn't want health and education properly funded, they would expect people to sort it out themselves and private enterprise to supply it, if you could not afford it then tough tits to you.

So properly funded means entirely paid for by the public purse? Every education course and every medical complaint should be covered by the taxpayer?

 

[Chippy_boy]

My point is some people wouldn't want health and education properly funded, they would expect people to sort it out themselves and private enterprise to supply it, if you could not afford it then tough tits to you.

Which people would those be?

There might be a few ideologues in the Tory party who think this, but the vast majority on both sides of the house do not. OK, there may be differences of opinion as to how to *provide* free healthcare for all, but I cannot think of a solitary MP who is in favour of scrapping free healthcare and saying "tough tits to you". If you genuinely think that's a mainstream view in the Tory party, you've been well and truly brainwashed by someone. You've not been drinking with Fumble, have you?

 

[Chippy_boy]

OK not impressed by their universities.

Homeless figures
UK. 307,000
Spain 40,000

Put that in your Tory pipe and smoke it.

Miles of chorizo eaten per year:

Spain = 8,129
UK 3

And other useful stats. Shall we move on to Portugal next?

 

[Henkeman]

OK not impressed by their universities.

Homeless figures
UK. 307,000
Spain 40,000

Put that in your Tory pipe and smoke it.

Well that's a pretty daft thing to say given that the homelessness rate is barely a third of what it was at the peak in 2003.

I'm certainly not going to point fingers at Labour for a complex issue, but clearly you're going to try.

 

[urban genie]

So properly funded means entirely paid for by the public purse? Every education course and every medical complaint should be covered by the taxpayer?

What can I say, I am an anarcho-communist at heart, fuck it let's abolish money and make wealth creation about the betterment of mankind not the private purse

In fact let's sit watching godspell and create a massive commune

 

[robbieh]

If yo

Miles of chorizo eaten per year:

Spain = 8,129
UK 3

And other useful stats. Shall we move on to Portugal next?

If you think the number of people sleeping rough on the streets in the UK is unimportant so be it.

My Spanish wife was working in Liverpool last week and was genuinely shocked by what she saw.

 

[Chippy_boy]

If yo


If you think the number of people sleeping rough on the streets in the UK is unimportant so be it.

My Spanish wife was working in Liverpool last week and was genuinely shocked by what she saw.

No, I don't. It just amused me how you seemingly picked a random stat out of the air about Spanish university fees and then another random one when that didn't find any supporters.

307,000 homeless people is shocking and appalling. What would you suggest we do about it?

Maybe bring in a Homelessness Reduction Act 2017 and force authorities to take action perhaps?

The Homelessness Reduction Act 2017 is one of the biggest changes to the rights of homeless people in England for 15 years. It effectively bolts two new duties to the original statutory rehousing duty:

• Duty to prevent homelessness
• Duty to relieve homelessness

Shelter supports the legislation because it extends entitlements to help, places a renewed focus on the prevention of homelessness and local joint working, and has the potential to provide more client-focussed, personalised statutory homelessness services.

Surely the evil Tories cannot be behind this???

 

[Henkeman]

What can I say, I am an anarcho-communist at heart, fuck it let's abolish money and make wealth creation about the betterment of mankind not the private purse

In fact let's sit watching godspell and create a massive commune

I always wonder how many Americans cotton on to that being more or less exactly what Star Trek is.

 

[urban genie]

I always wonder how many Americans cotton on to that being more or less exactly what Star Trek is.

Well I was gonna say the ultimate goal should be a star trek society, but may sound a bit geeky

 

[Henkeman]

If yo


If you think the number of people sleeping rough on the streets in the UK is unimportant so be it.

My Spanish wife was working in Liverpool last week and was genuinely shocked by what she saw.

Did you tell her you were genuinely shocked by an unemployment rate four times higher than here, or was this a one way discussion about problems?

 

[robbieh]

No, I don't. It just amused me how you seemingly picked a random stat out of the air about Spanish university fees and then another random one when that didn't find any supporters.

307,000 homeless people is shocking and appalling. What would you suggest we do about it?

Maybe bring in a Homelessness Reduction Act 2017 and force authorities to take action perhaps?

The Homelessness Reduction Act 2017 is one of the biggest changes to the rights of homeless people in England for 15 years. It effectively bolts two new duties to the original statutory rehousing duty:

• Duty to prevent homelessness
• Duty to relieve homelessness

Shelter supports the legislation because it extends entitlements to help, places a renewed focus on the prevention of homelessness and local joint working, and has the potential to provide more client-focussed, personalised statutory homelessness services.

Surely the evil Tories cannot be behind this???

Thanks for that promising legislation. Will watch with interest.

I wasn't just mentioning things for the sake of it. People were talking about public spending. Henkeman pointed out that there were more students these days and that is why the free system I was lucky enough to get was no longer viable. I can accept that but was nevertheless surprised that Spain could afford to be so generous. You put me right on that. Their universities are below UK standard. But just to point out that the UK is not a land flowing with milk and honey I felt it interesting to compare the 2 countries in terms of homelessness.

My main point is not about Spain or indeed the UK but about the fact that as the wealth piles up around the world little reaches those at the bottom.

We scoff at the Azerbaijani woman who spent 16m in Harrods,proceeds of her banker husband. But as sure as night follows day there will be UK capitalists who have cast envious eyes at the enormous wealth of oligarchs from Russia and elsewhere and are busy creating the conditions where they too can take their fellow citizens for the economic ride of a lifetime

 

[Ban-jani]

Well that's a pretty daft thing to say given that the homelessness rate is barely a third of what it was at the peak in 2003.

I'm certainly not going to point fingers at Labour for a complex issue, but clearly you're going to try.

I genuinely think 0 homelessness is impossible but we can get very close to it I think.

What has happened is that in the last 2 years we have seen a greater increase than the previous 6 before May got in.

That is an utterly disgraceful statistic.

 

[robbieh]

Did you tell her you were genuinely shocked by an unemployment rate four times higher than here, or was this a one way discussion about problems?

Neither of us need to be told, it is not great and is one of the reasons so many young spanish work in the UK.
However the fact remains a much poorer country has in my experience a better functioning NHS as well less people sleeping rough.