The Conservative Party

Ancient Citizen said:
Oh right, so never at Wembley, and the Queen's birthday celebration is not combined with parades by the Army, Navy or Air force every year, as well as
numerous other military parades.
Extinction Rebellion hasn't taken over these duties just yet.
Click to expand...

I hold a very low opinion of you, I'm sure the feeling is mutual, but even you must know you're blowing this out of your arse.

The Queen's birthday and games at Wembley are the occasions we do do these things, we've always done them when the occasion merits, what we have never done is everyday all the time, and you know it.

As for military parades we don't do Bastille Day or Red Square type displays of military might, we do more military stuff since Gordon Brown brought in Armed Forces Day, but that's never caught the public's imagination, we prefer Remembrance Sunday and the Edinburgh Tattoo.

We're not even very keen on military personnel wearing their uniform in public and that predates the troubles in Northern Ireland.

Ancient Citizen said:
The Labour party used to sing that 'Red Flag' choon, do they still do it at conferences, or is it now seen as a tad communisty?
After Tone scrapped clause 4 it would be a bit buttock clenching though, like Jacob Rees Mogg doing Stormzy.
A EU fanatic like you must cringe at the emblems that abound, and their
not even a country FFS.
The Labour party, at inception, did not resemble what Corbyn turned it into,
patriotism was imbued, not so now, as Keir has realised, and is trying, unsuccessfully, to rectify.
Click to expand...

The Red Flag is a socialist song, emphasising the sacrifices and solidarity of the international labour movement. It is the anthem of the British Labour Party, why wouldn't they sing it at the end of their conference?

The real shame is the Tories singing the national anthem at their conference, the anthem isn't theirs, it's not the song of one particular party, it belongs to all of us regardless of our political affiliation. By singing the national anthem at the Tory party conference right wingers like you are declaring it is your song, it belongs to you and not to me and to that I say "What the F**k!"

Ancient Citizen said:
Ah, the 'Unity' argument.
Construed as ''I'm fucking pissed off why people refuse to think like I do, if they did we'd be unified.''
They don't, so your version of unity is not on the table.
You are, and continue to do, apportioning all flag supporters as Tories, they're not, we keep hearing about the working class being shafted, used, taken for fools, misinformed, idiots, etc; etc; all this emanates from a large section the left. The workers hear this, they respond, and they completely reject it.
It is these working people you, once again, disparage, they are the ones who love what you hate, they don't conform, and I'm glad of that.
Click to expand...

When you have a society as fragmented as ours, narrow Tory definitions of what the flag represents does this country no service whatsoever.

Britain used to be good at avoiding friction by leaving the contentious stuff mostly unstated, emphasising commonality over difference used to be something we were good at. That's why we used the flag sparingly, using it on those occasions that emphasise that commonality, like the Queen's birthday and games at Wembley and avoided using it for sectarian, political or factional purposes.

But clearly that's not good enough for people like you! The flag is yours, it stands for you and what you believe, what use is the flag if you can't use it for your own devices?

And what devices might they be? Emphasising commonality or emphasising difference?

For you it's emphasising difference, clear as day! And what's the point of defining and owning a flag, if it can't be used to channel your anger and beat your enemies?

Because your posts drip with that anger, a burning anger for those that are different from you. For you the flag is too precious an asset not to be used for divide and rule, to demonise, to exploit.

So, let's take a look at what you do with "your" flag?

You're happy to piss on communities, destroy them, keep them in low paid jobs, set them apart from one another, that's a given. And when you've set them apart and told them who the enemy is you sell them a poisoned version of Britishness and tell them they're it, it's them and the flag represents them, and you tell them the "others" are pissing on the flag, and by extension pissing on them.

But the only thing dripping here is you, dripping with hatred of the "other".

You turn my stomach! Right wing little englanders like you are destroying this country.
 
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Ancient Citizen said:
Oh right, so never at Wembley, and the Queen's birthday celebration is not combined with parades by the Army, Navy or Air force every year, as well as
numerous other military parades.
Extinction Rebellion hasn't taken over these duties just yet.

The Labour party used to sing that 'Red Flag' choon, do they still do it at conferences, or is it now seen as a tad communisty?
After Tone scrapped clause 4 it would be a bit buttock clenching though, like Jacob Rees Mogg doing Stormzy.
A EU fanatic like you must cringe at the emblems that abound, and their
not even a country FFS.
The Labour party, at inception, did not resemble what Corbyn turned it into,
patriotism was imbued, not so now, as Keir has realised, and is trying, unsuccessfully, to rectify.

Ah, the 'Unity' argument.
Construed as ''I'm fucking pissed off why people refuse to think like I do, if they did we'd be unified.''
They don't, so your version of unity is not on the table.
You are, and continue to do, apportioning all flag supporters as Tories, they're not, we keep hearing about the working class being shafted, used, taken for fools, misinformed, idiots, etc; etc; all this emanates from a large section the left. The workers hear this, they respond, and they completely reject it.
It is these working people you, once again, disparage, they are the ones who love what you hate, they don't conform, and I'm glad of that.
Click to expand...
Why are you trying to turn this into a Labour party issue?

Having a flag behind you whilst you are sat in your living room on the internet does not prove you are Patriotic, it proves you are a bit of a dickhead.

I have not accused all Tories of wrapping themselves in the flag, but Tories are more likely to do it because of what they perceive the flag represents. The Tory party have appropriated the flag because they fear the break up of the Union. To many Tories that is unpalatable even though a rather large number were quite happy to sacrifice the Union in order to secure Brexit. A Tory PM who lost the Union would go down in history as their worst ever PM and do you think Johnson the vain **** wants that on his CV? No does he bollox, that is why all his acolytes are being ordered to show their patriotism by having flags in their living room. Its pathetic, its not patriotic having a flag, patriotism is loving your country, not loving a piece of cloth that you think represents an idealised version of the country the PM wants to remain as in case he looks a **** for losing it.

If you loved your country as a patriot claims to do, then they want the best for their country, that means things like feeding school kids, yet the flag shagging patriots were against that, that is how patriotic the bunch of charlatans truly are. They are faux patriots who love an idealised version of a country that does not exist and no amount of flags stood behind a Tory MP on the internet are ever going to bring about this idealised version of the country they think exists.

And as for Patriotism, its always been the working class that are the patriots, because its the working class who have died in huge numbers for the love of their country, not the upper class pricks like Rees-Mogg, they would have been the useless Generals of WW1 sending thousands and thousands of working class lads into mass slaughter as they sipped champers 50miles behind the trenches.

As for the Red Flag it is the song of the International Labour movement and has nothing at all to do with Marxism or Communism. It was first sung by Labour MPs in Parliament after there victory in the 1945 election. (ta wiki)

As for your statement that Corbyn was nothing like Labour's founding principles, you could not be more wrong. The original constitution of the Labour Party called for common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service, it was actually to the left of Corbyn. If you recall I did say at times that Corbyn was too right wing. But as the Overton window has changed over the years Labours original founding principles are now seen as Communist, but that is because we have the most right wing government in our history in charge.
 
The perfect fumble said:
But we are.

Conspicuous displays of the flag was never our thing and that applied regardless of who was PM, Churchill, Thatcher, Attlee or Wilson. We were regarded by other countries as a nation at ease with itself, we did not need to raise the flag at schools or swear allegiance, we did not play the national anthem at every sporting event, we did not have a military parade through the capital every year.

Our love of country was understated, taken as given, not requiring constant gaudy displays of patriotism, we left that to others, in fact, we considered constant flag waving something wonky republics did, tin pot countries and dangerous despots up to no good.

It was part of British exceptionalism, we're British, we do things differently here.



Whatever sneering that is taking place has nothing to do with the flag and everything to do with how it is being exploited. The Tories have always sought to monopolise patriotism and love of country, they love wrapping themselves in the flag and they stole the national anthem for their conference a long time ago.

It is Tories like you that have done the greatest disservice to these symbols. By declaring they belong to you, that they are indelibly linked to you and people like you and your values.

You have taken something that should unify us and made it your own. You've not exactly burned the flag you've wiped your arse with it and then wonder why the rest of us seem reluctant to wrap ourselves in it.
Click to expand...

Well said PF. I was a soldier for 23 years and it makes my blood boil when some Tory MPs tell me I am not being patriotic and if I don't like it to f..k off to another country. I stand for the National Anthem on public occasions and I am a patriot and I hate people taking over OUR flag for their own political purposes. When these c.nts put their lives on the line for OUR country then I will listen to them.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Oh right, so never at Wembley, and the Queen's birthday celebration is not combined with parades by the Army, Navy or Air force every year, as well as
numerous other military parades.
Extinction Rebellion hasn't taken over these duties just yet.

The Labour party used to sing that 'Red Flag' choon, do they still do it at conferences, or is it now seen as a tad communisty?
After Tone scrapped clause 4 it would be a bit buttock clenching though, like Jacob Rees Mogg doing Stormzy.
A EU fanatic like you must cringe at the emblems that abound, and their
not even a country FFS.
The Labour party, at inception, did not resemble what Corbyn turned it into,
patriotism was imbued, not so now, as Keir has realised, and is trying, unsuccessfully, to rectify.

Ah, the 'Unity' argument.
Construed as ''I'm fucking pissed off why people refuse to think like I do, if they did we'd be unified.''
They don't, so your version of unity is not on the table.
You are, and continue to do, apportioning all flag supporters as Tories, they're not, we keep hearing about the working class being shafted, used, taken for fools, misinformed, idiots, etc; etc; all this emanates from a large section the left. The workers hear this, they respond, and they completely reject it.
It is these working people you, once again, disparage, they are the ones who love what you hate, they don't conform, and I'm glad of that.
Click to expand...


Just a gentle reminder that prior to the Labour Government of Blair / Brown it was traditional to fly the Union Jack only 19 days a year . It was a Labour Government that removed the rule and allowed the flag to be flown whenever the public offices wanted or felt appropriate.

Please do not bang on about Labour supporters not being proud of their country or the flag.

www.theguardian.com

Brown flies flag for Britain

Gordon Brown nailed his British credentials to a Downing Street mast today as he abolished a decades-old rule stating that the union flag could be flown only on government buildings on certain days of the year.
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Fred_Quimby said:
Well said PF. I was a soldier for 23 years and it makes my blood boil when some Tory MPs tell me I am not being patriotic and if I don't like it to f..k off to another country. I stand for the National Anthem on public occasions and I am a patriot and I hate people taking over OUR flag for their own political purposes. When these c.nts put their lives on the line for OUR country then I will listen to them.
Click to expand...

The Tory party hasn't always been this way. Tory Prime Ministers who had served, like Harold MacMillan, understood the ties that bound us as a nation.




And what do we have now?

Boris-Johnson.jpg
 
The perfect fumble said:
The Tory party hasn't always been this way. Tory Prime Ministers who had served, like Harold MacMillan, understood the ties that bound us as a nation.




And what do we have now?

Boris-Johnson.jpg
Click to expand...



A lying bufoon.

Wrapping himself in the nations flag,that his party are using as part of their "brand".

Call it clever or cynical or cheap.
Unfortunately it seems to work.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Oh right, so never at Wembley, and the Queen's birthday celebration is not combined with parades by the Army, Navy or Air force every year, as well as
numerous other military parades.
Extinction Rebellion hasn't taken over these duties just yet.

The Labour party used to sing that 'Red Flag' choon, do they still do it at conferences, or is it now seen as a tad communisty?
After Tone scrapped clause 4 it would be a bit buttock clenching though, like Jacob Rees Mogg doing Stormzy.
A EU fanatic like you must cringe at the emblems that abound, and their
not even a country FFS.
The Labour party, at inception, did not resemble what Corbyn turned it into,
patriotism was imbued, not so now, as Keir has realised, and is trying, unsuccessfully, to rectify.

Ah, the 'Unity' argument.
Construed as ''I'm fucking pissed off why people refuse to think like I do, if they did we'd be unified.''
They don't, so your version of unity is not on the table.
You are, and continue to do, apportioning all flag supporters as Tories, they're not, we keep hearing about the working class being shafted, used, taken for fools, misinformed, idiots, etc; etc; all this emanates from a large section the left. The workers hear this, they respond, and they completely reject it.
It is these working people you, once again, disparage, they are the ones who love what you hate, they don't conform, and I'm glad of that.
Click to expand...
There may have been occasions when England didn’t sing a national anthem before sporting events because England doesn’t have a national anthem. Our nationality is British, not English. And our national anthem is the national anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not England.

This might be a good read for a few:
5443DA7F-5EBE-4E57-A5DF-03049859DD5B.jpeg
“The British Labour Party has at times been a force for radical change in the UK, but one critical aspect of its makeup has been consistently misunderstood and underplayed: its Britishness. Throughout the party's history, its Britishness has been an integral part of how it has done politics, acted in government and opposition, and understood the UK and its nations and regions. The People's Flag and the Union Jack is the first comprehensive account of how Labour has tried to understand Britain and Britishness and to compete in a political landscape defined by conservative notions of nation, patriotism and tradition. At a time when many of the party faithful regard national identity as a toxic subject, academics Gerry Hassan and Eric Shaw argue that Labour's Britishness and its ambiguous relationship with issues of nationalism matter more today than ever before, and will continue to matter for the foreseeable future, when the UK is in fundamental crisis. As debate rages about Brexit, and the prospect of Scottish independence remains live, this timely intervention, featuring contributions from a wealth of pioneering thinkers, offers an illuminating and perceptive insight into Labour's past, present and future.”

Blair was big on the flag, and so were the Labour supporters and voters in the late 90s:
CD17BD7F-9155-4EF1-8211-CDC06C0D4CFE.jpeg

Mods were British iconography mad
ACDCEAF1-B5AE-4654-8B55-C8EC65244BEC.jpeg


Britpop and Oasis were early doors
B79028B8-6D13-464A-8506-020728D11F20.jpeg

It was everywhere in 2012 for the Olympics
3A4CD900-0A78-405D-B302-6B0E9F5FD268.jpeg

Normal people with normal moderate views really like it when the national flag and national iconography is flown and used proudly. It’s not nationalistic, it’s just patriotic. My Friday socks for work are union flag socks, I have a cool umbrella from CT shirts with the union flag on the inside.

It’s good to see the Govt want to fly the flag. It’s got nothing to do with Fascism that they’re doing it, no matter how much tenuous rubbish anyone wants to link the Govt’s actions with fascism. Despite me thinking it’s a good thing they want to fly the flag, it will never make me vote for them, it doesn’t make me like their political ideology; nor will it most people who don’t vote for them.

However, I think since Corbyn and his mob were around, the left have hated all this sort of thing. All of a sudden, even though Britishness is a key feature of the Labour Party, the left are “internationalists” these days, some consider themselves “European” and love all the EU iconography and flag, and in some instances are actually anti-British.
 
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bluethrunthru said:
why is it that people who are pro-flag flying make the presumption that people who don't think its necessary are

1/ left or hard left
2/ unpatriotic?
Click to expand...
Experience.

And you should be more importantly asking yourself and others, “why do tenuous links to authoritarianism and fascism keep getting branded about like confetti?”

It’s hyperbole, it’s unhealthy. It’s as unhelpful as the party in power making their mistakes is for the country.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Experience.

And you should be more importantly asking yourself and others, “why do tenuous links to authoritarianism and fascism keep getting branded about like confetti?”

It’s hyperbole, it’s unhealthy. It’s as unhelpful as the party in power making their mistakes is for the country.
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Do you agree that the government should be mandating flag flying and making its spokesmen have them in their living rooms? Or should it be personal choice with some guidelines as to their use?
 
west didsblue said:
Do you agree that the government should be mandating flag flying and making its spokesmen have them in their living rooms? Or should it be personal choice with some guidelines as to their use?
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The mandate is on government buildings. It’s not like we’re all going to be forced to order a load of flags, poles and screws for every house in the country.

What the govt are mentioning is barely important at all. These links to fascism are barmy!
 
remember arthur mann said:
Interesting to see answers on census question 14 re national identity.
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I consider myself British.

These DNA/genealogy tests you can have and are becoming ever more popular are showing that a lot of “English” people have older genes from this island than the Anglo-Saxon invasion and those that do have some AS genes actually also had a good chunk of pre-AS-Britonic/Brythonic genes as well.

While English is a language, there’s not really any such thing as English genealogically speaking (nor Scottish, nor Welsh, the genes of this island are not really distinct enough to separate three countries, if they were to be split there’d be more than three, but even the dozen or so you could separate everyone into, aren’t distinct enough from each other to be considered a genes from different countries).

My passport (when I had one, it’s run out haha) says I’m British, the country I live in is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This has been a country since 1927, and hasn’t been England since [i think] 1707.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
However, I think since Corbyn and his mob were around, the left have hated all this sort of thing. All of a sudden, even though Britishness is a key feature of the Labour Party, the left are “internationalists” these days, some consider themselves “European” and love all the EU iconography and flag, and in some instances are actually anti-British.
Click to expand...
I don't consider myself European, i do not love the EU flag nor am I anti British, but I am an internationalist, because international solidarity of the working classes could overthrow capitalism.

Stop getting the left mixed up with liberals and i might start taking you seriously.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
The mandate is on government buildings. It’s not like we’re all going to be forced to order a load of flags, poles and screws for every house in the country.

What the govt are mentioning is barely important at all. These links to fascism are barmy!
Click to expand...
Mandating flags isn’t a big deal in itself but it’s a symptom of the direction this government is going with its increasingly authoritarian agenda particularly with this bill giving police more powers than they need.
 
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