The Independent Group

Henkeman said:
No, not "oh dear" at all, the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty refers to the right to reject the EU supremacy by virtue of deciding to leave the EU which asserts it.

If you want me to quote verbatim the point the Supreme Court made about the constitutional settlement that the UK chose to cede legal supremacy, I am quite content to do so, because it is both entirely clear, and an acknowledged point of principle.

I stand by every word, and it's not ad hominem, it is accurate.

The fundamental principle was asserted thus:

"If the supremacy within the European Community of Community Law over the national law of member states was not always inherent in the EEC Treaty it was certainly well established in the jurisprudence of the Court of Justice long before the United Kingdom joined the Community. Thus, whatever limitation of its sovereignty Parliament accepted when it enacted the European Communities Act 1972 was entirely voluntary. Under the terms of the 1972 Act it has always been clear that it was the duty of a United Kingdom court, when delivering final judgment, to override any rule of national law found to be in conflict with any directly enforceable rule of Community law."

The modification referred entirely and solely to collisions between fundamental UK principle in law and charter, not, as you claimed, the ability to reject EU law when we chose to. If you try to claim otherwise, that is absolutely mendacious, for you cannot point to a single instance where it has happened.
Click to expand...

Okay, as hominem it is.

I get that you don’t understand sovereignty but I really thought you would understand Diceys use of the word ‘any’.

No Sovereignty has been lost to the EU because once you cede sovereignty you can’t take it back, it can only be relinquished. That’s what sovereignty is, that’s why the white paper says it hasn’t been relinquished, that’s why the Supreme Court agrees.

The fact that it has never been done spectacularly misses the point. Parliament could make a law making it an offence to give birth to blue eyed babies if it wanted. The fact that it has never done so does not indicate that it does not have that power

You are utterly wrong to suggest that the UK parliament is anything other than sovereign. Sovereignty is an absolute concept. There are no limitations on what Parliament can do other than those it places on itself, and those limitations, as the House of Lords acknowledged, are choices it makes not concessions it is compelled to make.

To take one example, if Parliament said ‘notwithstanding any provision of EUlaw, French nationals may not enter the UK without a visa’ are you seriously suggesting that an Act of the UK Parliament would not be the law of the land?

Do me a favour
 
There are no binary choices, we are not having that conversation. If we don't leave the EU then if politicians are deluded enough to believe that people will just shrug their shoulders they'll be mistaken. Come the 30th March we'll see how the land lies, I suspect an extension of sorts but if that isn't forthcoming and our govt just back down and announce we are staying in then expect strife and lots of it.

If you can't get your way through the ballot box is a democracy then the other ways are acceptable, civil disobedience etc.
 
Certain posters really struggle with not being accepted as absolute authority on certain things, dont they? Or, admitting they are wrong, or God forbid, accepting any other side of an argument that isn't their own.

ftr: Sovereignty as described by a dictionary :
Supreme power or authority. ‘the sovereignty of Parliament
Click to expand...

Which the UK ultimately has, and nobody is arguing otherwise.

However being able to use that sovereignty is another thing all together.
As Ireland found out to its cost in 2008......
 
Chris in London said:
Okay, as hominem it is.

I get that you don’t understand sovereignty but I really thought you would understand Diceys use of the word ‘any’.

No Sovereignty has been lost to the EU because once you cede sovereignty you can’t take it back, it can only be relinquished. That’s what sovereignty is, that’s why the white paper says it hasn’t been relinquished, that’s why the Supreme Court agrees.

The fact that it has never been done spectacularly misses the point. Parliament could make a law making it an offence to give birth to blue eyed babies if it wanted. The fact that it has never done so does not indicate that it does not have that power

You are utterly wrong to suggest that the UK parliament is anything other than sovereign. Sovereignty is an absolute concept. There are no limitations on what Parliament can do other than those it places on itself, and those limitations, as the House of Lords acknowledged, are choices it makes not concessions it is compelled to make.

To take one example, if Parliament said ‘notwithstanding any provision of EUlaw, French nationals may not enter the UK without a visa’ are you seriously suggesting that an Act of the UK Parliament would not be the law of the land?

Do me a favour
Click to expand...

You stated, and I quote:

"Our Parliament has the power to repeal any EU law it chooses, and if it does so that EU law will no longer be in force in the UK."

This is grotesquely misleading, and fundamentally wrong. An argument that you tried to make for your own reasons. The UK absolutely has the right to reclaim it's sovereignty by leaving the EU, but it cannot, as you tried to claim, assert it while still a member. If you want to call it ad hominem for pointing out that you were, at best, gilding the Lily to try to make a point, I couldn't care less. Yes, absolutely the UK has absolute sovereignty in the EU, but it can only exercise that by leaving, otherwise it is subservient to EU law. This is a fact, an absolute fact, and one that everyone accepts apparently bar you.

You can find that doctrine here:

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/obs...rial-relations-dictionary/supremacy-of-eu-law

Or here:

https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law...f-european-union-administrative-law-essay.php

Or here:

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-law-and-uk/

Deny that till you're blue in the face. It is a fact, and quite literally what Brexit has been about. If you want to claim the UK has sovereignty over EU law, so it does. But only by leaving. That is also a fact, and it is pretty much only you who disputes it.
 
Henkeman said:
You stated, and I quote:

"Our Parliament has the power to repeal any EU law it chooses, and if it does so that EU law will no longer be in force in the UK."

This is grotesquely misleading, and fundamentally wrong. An argument that you tried to make for your own reasons. The UK absolutely has the right to reclaim it's sovereignty by leaving the EU, but it cannot, as you tried to claim, assert it while still a member. If you want to call it ad hominem for pointing out that you were, at best, gilding the Lily to try to make a point, I couldn't care less. Yes, absolutely the UK has absolute sovereignty in the EU, but it can only exercise that by leaving, otherwise it is subservient to EU law. This is a fact, an absolute fact, and one that everyone accepts apparently bar you.

You can find that doctrine here:

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/obs...rial-relations-dictionary/supremacy-of-eu-law

Or here:

https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law...f-european-union-administrative-law-essay.php

Or here:

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-law-and-uk/

Deny that till you're blue in the face. It is a fact, and quite literally what Brexit has been about. If you want to claim the UK has sovereignty over EU law, so it does. But only by leaving. That is also a fact, and it is pretty much only you who disputes it.
Click to expand...

With respect, mate, every time you come on this thread you demonstrate that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

It’s fun to watch but, for your own sake, you really should threxit.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
With respect, mate, every time you come on this thread you demonstrate that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

It’s fun to watch but, for your own sake, you really should threxit.
Click to expand...

With no respect whatever, I know a fuck sight more than you. But don't let it stop you trying to be condescending, or unable to argue any point.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
✖
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.