southamptonblue
Well-Known Member
Been doing a course on conflict and human behaviour all week......Mr Billy Shears gives a whole new meaning to negativety!
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southamptonblue said:Been doing a course on conflict and human behaviour all week......Mr Billy Shears gives a whole new meaning to negativety!
Entrenched....presuppositions........etc etc ;-)
southamptonblue said:Been doing a course on conflict and human behaviour all week......Mr Billy Shears gives a whole new meaning to negativety!
He just has a different point of view to the majority, and there'd be a lot less conflict in the world if people could learn to respect that someone who holds a different point of view has a right to articulate that point of view without being insulted or labelled......
ifiwasarichfan
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 4 Dec 2008
- Messages
- 7,941
BillyShears said:ifiwasarichfan said:At the weekend; many of us experienced anguish on here as they hit yet another last gasp winner against a spirited and brave Wolves. My post in that thread preceding Bigga's by a couple of days - " The last thing a fighter loses is his punch".
Bigga's Boxing analogy is a true reflection. They are a Club on the Ropes but like a true Champion they will go out swinging; they tried to steal the points last night and our Manager was waiting for them Tactically.
The Moral victory last night was ours. Far more important than a Goal from a Benjani; just like the fighting display with 10 men against Arsenal - we learn more about our side with each passing Game.
Their is only one Team on the up in this City.
A very eloquent and very well thought out post. Unfortunately I don't agree with the crux of it, that the moral victory was ours. They came for a point, and left with one. I'd say it was a moral victory for them...
Also, not conceding a late goal shouldn't be classed as some sign of huge progress. We put out what was minus two players, our strongest team...
Billy; I am a big Fan of your Posts and I really admire the stance and position you take. But I am delighted we didn't concede and it was a very good point. I think the Manager and the Players also see it as a very good point won rather than two points dropped. It's about a 38 Game Season not two Derby Matches every year.
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hgblue said:southamptonblue said:Been doing a course on conflict and human behaviour all week......Mr Billy Shears gives a whole new meaning to negativety!
He just has a different point of view to the majority, and there'd be a lot less conflict in the world if people could learn to respect that someone who holds a different point of view has a right to articulate that point of view without being insulted or labelled......
I'm sure they taught him that in his conflict and human behaviour course...
johnwaynebobbet
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2008
- Messages
- 335
Lets sign up Rafa!
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ifiwasarichfan said:BillyShears said:A very eloquent and very well thought out post. Unfortunately I don't agree with the crux of it, that the moral victory was ours. They came for a point, and left with one. I'd say it was a moral victory for them...
Also, not conceding a late goal shouldn't be classed as some sign of huge progress. We put out what was minus two players, our strongest team...
Billy; I am a big Fan of your Posts and I really admire the stance and position you take. But I am delighted we didn't concede and it was a very good point. I think the Manager and the Players also see it as a very good point won rather than two points dropped. It's about a 38 Game Season not two Derby Matches every year.
Cheers mate....and you're right, what will be will be born out over the 38 games this season. Here's hoping I'm talking out of my arse...!
fbloke said:I sense Billy is determined to see the black side of the result!
C'mon Billy let the light shine in ;-)
Hehe I can imagine now what it's like to be a Christian - just immensely frustrating!
I have not posted a long message on this forum for a while, so here goes nothing.
I have been quite amazed at some of the posts concerning Mancini. Now, I do not want to come across as condescending, so please forgive me if that is how it sounds but it seems to me that there are an awful lot of people who do not understand football.
You just do not turn up, buy some top players, sit back and then in a few months start destroying all and sundry. This is something that Sheikh Mansour understands and as long as we are progressing in the right direction he will be patient.
Since, it seems accepted on this forum, that Mourinho is the best manager who has ever lived, a notion propagated in the British Media for so long many believe it must be true, I think some comparative analysis will be useful.
Mancini was brought in to build a winning team and NOT like Ancelotti at Chelsea or Mourinho at Inter, Madrid and to a certain extent even at Chelsea merely add the finishing touches. The reason I have confidence in Mancini is that this is something he has done before. Inter were is a terrible position when he took over but he revolutionised them and won Seria A (at least count his last title if not his first two). The foundation he built allowed Mourinho to take them to the next level and win the Champions League. This, “I do not care about his past success, what has he done for us” argument that keeps getting peddled out on here is with all due respect nonsense. How can you judge how someone will turn out if you do not look at their past record. When Mourinho and Ancelotti joined Chelsea (obviously not at the same time!) they had no experience in English football, but they got their positions by proving that they can win trophies, mainly their Domestic League and the Champions League.* Mancini’s job is different as he has not inherited a team which has finished second/third. He has a lower starting point, and thus his task will take slightly longer. Already, we have a much more balanced team (I am referring to our full Starting XI when everyone is fit) and we are becoming increasingly difficult to beat. There is a reason that people say great teams are built from the back, this is not just a witty adage which sounds good, it is true. All teams need a solid base and Mancini is organising a very solid back line. Once, Tevez, Silva and Balotelli start to gel, with support from Kolarov and Boateng, we will be much more pleasing on the eye.
The reason why Barca get so many plaudits is because they play such beautiful attacking football AND win. This is not easily replicated and is why I have tremendous respect for Michels, Cruyff and Guardiola. However, it took years to perfect this playing style and special coaches to bring the best out of their players. You need an established team to play this type of football, and even Mourinho (never short of bigging himself up) has stated a couple of times this season that he is not Harry Potter! So, if we cannot expect magic from Mourinho, with the players he has at his disposal at Madrid, then how can we expect similar wizardry from Mancini. Although Madrid are sitting pretty at the head of the table a point a head of Barca, they have had some very poor performances this season, but since they now have a solid defence, when they play badly they draw instead of lose. One draw instead of a loss separates the big two in Spain and closer to home we only have to look at Chelsea winning the title last season by you guessed it a solitary point!
It is being said that the ‘rags were there for the taking,’ that if only Mancini took the shackles off we would have wiped the floor with them. I heard the same lines trotted out last season about how the Rags are in decline, about how they are not the force they used to be and while this all may be true they have not gone from Champions League winners to relegation fodder in a couple of seasons. Whether, we like it or not they are still a good team, who know how to play with each other and are unlikely to be turned over at ease by any opposition. People also need to be a bit more thoughtful in their critiques. The idea that more risk equals more reward is true but leaves out the most crucial aspect of that equation, namely, that more risk is exactly that, risky! It seems that many of our supporters have this Del Boy-esque ‘he who dares’ attitude but if I remember correctly didn’t he go bankrupt in the final episode? In fact, it was this fallacious notion which got is into the financial mess we are currently in, as people believed there was more to gain by taking risks without realising (or conveniently sidelining) the fact that there was also more to lose! After last years Derby heartbreaks, what Mancini saw as important was to avoid conceding at the death, in this sense we were successful. How many of us watching that match were half-expecting a Rag winner in extra time? Mancini, but more importantly the players have proven to themselves that they can shut out any opposition if they stay alert and concentrate for the duration of the match. That is a huge psychological boost, and when we play the Rags again, the fear that we may concede in injury time will be eradicated, the Rags have thus lost one of their most potent weapons against us. Mancini’s wry smile at the end of the match indicated that he, better than anyone else understood this.
I know it is disappointing not to win the Derby, but we need to think more long term. Mancini is getting the team to do what is necessary to compete at the highest level, not just so that we can have bragging rights for a few days. If all it takes is a cagey draw against our arch-enemies to instil in our players the belief that we can stop any attack in the League then it is a price worth paying. Pundits are terrified of what we are becoming, that is well-organised, disciplined and tactically astute with enough creative talent to score against even the best of defences, rather than a gung-ho, never say die, win a few lose a few team which they had hoped we would be; basically a more expensive version of Blackpool, capable of pulling off some great victories but too naive to ever compete at the highest level and thus not really a threat to the established elite. Hence, we are treated to a constant barrage by Sky et al of how cautious Mancini is and how this Italian mentality does not work. Well excuse me, but Italy have won 4 World Cups and have produced some of the greatest managers of all time. It is an extremely incompetent way to criticise someone by alluding to that fact that they are disciplined! Maybe it is because many of the pundits have grown up with a different style of football and have never seen a full match involving two non-English teams, but they have such a poor understanding of the game and unfortunately with 24x7 Sky broadcasts some of this seems to have filtered through into the mindsets of our supporters. British football may have a lot of positives but tactics is certainly not one of them!
When you are put in charge to do a job, the way to increase your chances of being successful it not to take unnecessary risks. When Capello was drafted in to become Real Madrid boss he played uninspiring football but guess what he won the League in his first year. As, this was Real Madrid, he was promptly sacked only to be brought back several years later to repeat the trick, which again he did in his first year, before promptly being sacked again. Mourinho was brought in by Moratti to win Inter the Champions League. He did not proceed to play all out attacking football in order to achieve this result. He was patient, he was defensive and he was disciplined (although one might argue at times very dirty). The 1-0 victory at Stamford Bridge was a defensive masterclass, he could have come out and said you know what Abramovich, I am going to thrash your sorry little team to teach you a lesson. Yet, he put his ego to one side, and set out to stop Chelsea scoring, he achieved this and Eto’o got a late goal to rub salt into Chelsea’s wounds. He did not risk conceding, and thus had the last laugh over his former employer’s. Against Barca, when they lost 1-0, Mourinho clearly set out not to concede (even before the red card) and although Inter rode their luck (Bojan’s goal could have easily been allowed, thus giving Barca the aggregate victory) they got the result they needed. He could have just said, if we get an early goal the tie is pretty much over, but he chose not to take the unnecessary risk, and Inter went on to become European Champions. Was Mourinho, ridiculed for such a dour, defensive performance? No, he was lauded as a footballing genius, the man who tamed the mighty Barca, by kicking them off the park. Now, you can say that was Barca, this is the Rags, and that Inter did the business in the first leg so playing not to concede was justified, however, my point remains the same, Mourinho did not want to take unnecessary risks. He may well have got an early goal but Barca may have just as easily countered and got 2 on the break if Inter committed too many men forward. Also, while the Rags are certainly not Barca, we are not Inter (4 straight Seria A titles (at that time) gives teams confidence), Mancini weighed the pros and cons and decided that City could not afford to lose this game and guess what we didn’t. Mourinho won with Inter and as Guardiola said after the match, the result proved Mourinho’s tactics were correct, if we finish well this season, Mancini’s tactics will also have been proven correct. We do not want to be Tottenham ‘beat Inter and then lose to Bolton’ Hotspur. While they did very well last season, they do not look like a team capable of mounting a serious title challenge as they are far too inconsistent.
There are barely a handful of managers in World football (none of whom are available) who are capable of doing the job City require, i.e. building for long term success and Mancini given his past record is certainly one of them. However, it is perfectly clear that some people for whatever reason do not want Mancini in charge of City. Of course that is their prerogative but they start to lose all credibility when they give no reasonable justifications, other than the old clichés of how the Italian mentality will get us nowhere. Chelsea under the Italian Ancelotti set up with Mikel, Ramires and Essien/Zhirkov with a front three of Malouda, Drogba and Anelka and look how well they have done, but De Jong, Yaya Toure, Barry/Milner and Silva, Tevez and Balotelli is seen as far too defensive for this league and means we will never win anything! There is a decent thread on this forum concerning Mancini’s tactics which provide a good indication of how Mancini wants us to set up. However, I envisage once we start winning people will forget all about tactics and mentality and everything else, we like to bring up when we are not getting the results we would have liked. It takes time to build a team and Mancini is making good progress. Many of us are just too impatient and want the finished product now, maybe it is because after so many years of pain we cannot bear to wait any longer or maybe it is just to shut up the media hacks. The investment is not going to just stop so there is no need to feel like we will waste our one and only chance of glory. It is important that the right steps are taken now, in order to build a team that can compete at the upper echelons of football for some time to come not another Blackburn or Leeds that have some success and then go back to mediocrity or worse. Just ignore the media, bear with this team just a little longer and you will see that a little patience makes success taste all the more sweet when it does finally arrive.
* I know Mancini has never won the Champions League and there are questions marks over his ability to do so, but he is certainly good enough to win the League and that is what is being discussed at the moment.
I have been quite amazed at some of the posts concerning Mancini. Now, I do not want to come across as condescending, so please forgive me if that is how it sounds but it seems to me that there are an awful lot of people who do not understand football.
You just do not turn up, buy some top players, sit back and then in a few months start destroying all and sundry. This is something that Sheikh Mansour understands and as long as we are progressing in the right direction he will be patient.
Since, it seems accepted on this forum, that Mourinho is the best manager who has ever lived, a notion propagated in the British Media for so long many believe it must be true, I think some comparative analysis will be useful.
Mancini was brought in to build a winning team and NOT like Ancelotti at Chelsea or Mourinho at Inter, Madrid and to a certain extent even at Chelsea merely add the finishing touches. The reason I have confidence in Mancini is that this is something he has done before. Inter were is a terrible position when he took over but he revolutionised them and won Seria A (at least count his last title if not his first two). The foundation he built allowed Mourinho to take them to the next level and win the Champions League. This, “I do not care about his past success, what has he done for us” argument that keeps getting peddled out on here is with all due respect nonsense. How can you judge how someone will turn out if you do not look at their past record. When Mourinho and Ancelotti joined Chelsea (obviously not at the same time!) they had no experience in English football, but they got their positions by proving that they can win trophies, mainly their Domestic League and the Champions League.* Mancini’s job is different as he has not inherited a team which has finished second/third. He has a lower starting point, and thus his task will take slightly longer. Already, we have a much more balanced team (I am referring to our full Starting XI when everyone is fit) and we are becoming increasingly difficult to beat. There is a reason that people say great teams are built from the back, this is not just a witty adage which sounds good, it is true. All teams need a solid base and Mancini is organising a very solid back line. Once, Tevez, Silva and Balotelli start to gel, with support from Kolarov and Boateng, we will be much more pleasing on the eye.
The reason why Barca get so many plaudits is because they play such beautiful attacking football AND win. This is not easily replicated and is why I have tremendous respect for Michels, Cruyff and Guardiola. However, it took years to perfect this playing style and special coaches to bring the best out of their players. You need an established team to play this type of football, and even Mourinho (never short of bigging himself up) has stated a couple of times this season that he is not Harry Potter! So, if we cannot expect magic from Mourinho, with the players he has at his disposal at Madrid, then how can we expect similar wizardry from Mancini. Although Madrid are sitting pretty at the head of the table a point a head of Barca, they have had some very poor performances this season, but since they now have a solid defence, when they play badly they draw instead of lose. One draw instead of a loss separates the big two in Spain and closer to home we only have to look at Chelsea winning the title last season by you guessed it a solitary point!
It is being said that the ‘rags were there for the taking,’ that if only Mancini took the shackles off we would have wiped the floor with them. I heard the same lines trotted out last season about how the Rags are in decline, about how they are not the force they used to be and while this all may be true they have not gone from Champions League winners to relegation fodder in a couple of seasons. Whether, we like it or not they are still a good team, who know how to play with each other and are unlikely to be turned over at ease by any opposition. People also need to be a bit more thoughtful in their critiques. The idea that more risk equals more reward is true but leaves out the most crucial aspect of that equation, namely, that more risk is exactly that, risky! It seems that many of our supporters have this Del Boy-esque ‘he who dares’ attitude but if I remember correctly didn’t he go bankrupt in the final episode? In fact, it was this fallacious notion which got is into the financial mess we are currently in, as people believed there was more to gain by taking risks without realising (or conveniently sidelining) the fact that there was also more to lose! After last years Derby heartbreaks, what Mancini saw as important was to avoid conceding at the death, in this sense we were successful. How many of us watching that match were half-expecting a Rag winner in extra time? Mancini, but more importantly the players have proven to themselves that they can shut out any opposition if they stay alert and concentrate for the duration of the match. That is a huge psychological boost, and when we play the Rags again, the fear that we may concede in injury time will be eradicated, the Rags have thus lost one of their most potent weapons against us. Mancini’s wry smile at the end of the match indicated that he, better than anyone else understood this.
I know it is disappointing not to win the Derby, but we need to think more long term. Mancini is getting the team to do what is necessary to compete at the highest level, not just so that we can have bragging rights for a few days. If all it takes is a cagey draw against our arch-enemies to instil in our players the belief that we can stop any attack in the League then it is a price worth paying. Pundits are terrified of what we are becoming, that is well-organised, disciplined and tactically astute with enough creative talent to score against even the best of defences, rather than a gung-ho, never say die, win a few lose a few team which they had hoped we would be; basically a more expensive version of Blackpool, capable of pulling off some great victories but too naive to ever compete at the highest level and thus not really a threat to the established elite. Hence, we are treated to a constant barrage by Sky et al of how cautious Mancini is and how this Italian mentality does not work. Well excuse me, but Italy have won 4 World Cups and have produced some of the greatest managers of all time. It is an extremely incompetent way to criticise someone by alluding to that fact that they are disciplined! Maybe it is because many of the pundits have grown up with a different style of football and have never seen a full match involving two non-English teams, but they have such a poor understanding of the game and unfortunately with 24x7 Sky broadcasts some of this seems to have filtered through into the mindsets of our supporters. British football may have a lot of positives but tactics is certainly not one of them!
When you are put in charge to do a job, the way to increase your chances of being successful it not to take unnecessary risks. When Capello was drafted in to become Real Madrid boss he played uninspiring football but guess what he won the League in his first year. As, this was Real Madrid, he was promptly sacked only to be brought back several years later to repeat the trick, which again he did in his first year, before promptly being sacked again. Mourinho was brought in by Moratti to win Inter the Champions League. He did not proceed to play all out attacking football in order to achieve this result. He was patient, he was defensive and he was disciplined (although one might argue at times very dirty). The 1-0 victory at Stamford Bridge was a defensive masterclass, he could have come out and said you know what Abramovich, I am going to thrash your sorry little team to teach you a lesson. Yet, he put his ego to one side, and set out to stop Chelsea scoring, he achieved this and Eto’o got a late goal to rub salt into Chelsea’s wounds. He did not risk conceding, and thus had the last laugh over his former employer’s. Against Barca, when they lost 1-0, Mourinho clearly set out not to concede (even before the red card) and although Inter rode their luck (Bojan’s goal could have easily been allowed, thus giving Barca the aggregate victory) they got the result they needed. He could have just said, if we get an early goal the tie is pretty much over, but he chose not to take the unnecessary risk, and Inter went on to become European Champions. Was Mourinho, ridiculed for such a dour, defensive performance? No, he was lauded as a footballing genius, the man who tamed the mighty Barca, by kicking them off the park. Now, you can say that was Barca, this is the Rags, and that Inter did the business in the first leg so playing not to concede was justified, however, my point remains the same, Mourinho did not want to take unnecessary risks. He may well have got an early goal but Barca may have just as easily countered and got 2 on the break if Inter committed too many men forward. Also, while the Rags are certainly not Barca, we are not Inter (4 straight Seria A titles (at that time) gives teams confidence), Mancini weighed the pros and cons and decided that City could not afford to lose this game and guess what we didn’t. Mourinho won with Inter and as Guardiola said after the match, the result proved Mourinho’s tactics were correct, if we finish well this season, Mancini’s tactics will also have been proven correct. We do not want to be Tottenham ‘beat Inter and then lose to Bolton’ Hotspur. While they did very well last season, they do not look like a team capable of mounting a serious title challenge as they are far too inconsistent.
There are barely a handful of managers in World football (none of whom are available) who are capable of doing the job City require, i.e. building for long term success and Mancini given his past record is certainly one of them. However, it is perfectly clear that some people for whatever reason do not want Mancini in charge of City. Of course that is their prerogative but they start to lose all credibility when they give no reasonable justifications, other than the old clichés of how the Italian mentality will get us nowhere. Chelsea under the Italian Ancelotti set up with Mikel, Ramires and Essien/Zhirkov with a front three of Malouda, Drogba and Anelka and look how well they have done, but De Jong, Yaya Toure, Barry/Milner and Silva, Tevez and Balotelli is seen as far too defensive for this league and means we will never win anything! There is a decent thread on this forum concerning Mancini’s tactics which provide a good indication of how Mancini wants us to set up. However, I envisage once we start winning people will forget all about tactics and mentality and everything else, we like to bring up when we are not getting the results we would have liked. It takes time to build a team and Mancini is making good progress. Many of us are just too impatient and want the finished product now, maybe it is because after so many years of pain we cannot bear to wait any longer or maybe it is just to shut up the media hacks. The investment is not going to just stop so there is no need to feel like we will waste our one and only chance of glory. It is important that the right steps are taken now, in order to build a team that can compete at the upper echelons of football for some time to come not another Blackburn or Leeds that have some success and then go back to mediocrity or worse. Just ignore the media, bear with this team just a little longer and you will see that a little patience makes success taste all the more sweet when it does finally arrive.
* I know Mancini has never won the Champions League and there are questions marks over his ability to do so, but he is certainly good enough to win the League and that is what is being discussed at the moment.
TFC
Well-Known Member
hbruz80 - not going to quote the whole post, but I really enjoyed reading that :)