The Labour Government

[Kompany Car]

The problem is that in the long-term, if not addressed and remuneration looks incredibly poor next to other professions, that inelasticity becomes such a problem that rather than think “why not be a doctor somewhere else?” People start to think “why be a doctor at all?”

Its where we are at with teachers which can be seen by the large fall in the number of graduates doing PGCEs. When it comes to applicants for medical degrees its still significantly over subscribed. To quote a Guardian article...

"University and College Admissions Service (Ucas) figures show that 28,690 students applied to medicine in 2021, a rise of 21% on last year. Universities made 21,577 offers, a reduction of 14.4% compared with 2019, representing a 41.2% rise in rejections."

From a hard nosed economics point of view supply far exceeds demand which would suggest that the supply at least in the medium term supply of new junior doctors is probably more elastic than most people believe.

However as you rightly point out it doesn't take much to tip the balance and due to the training requirements for the medical professions supply can rapidly become inelastic.

 

[dave_blue12]

What a lazy and ignorant answer - Absolutely not - but as he correctly states there are far too many people playing the system.

Now that is a lazy ignorant answer.

You don’t have a fucking clue.

 

[Kompany Car]

Do we really need that administrative roles though, that’s were a lot could be culled, we had this in the fire service where the HR department became so bloated they reckon they had 1 HR person for every 3 operational staff, in the private sector it’s about 1 to 10. When a diversity officer is on significantly more than a frontline firefighter I question the whole ethos of it all, they had to be reminded that HR was there to support the operational personal and not the other way round, get rid of HR the fire service would still function not the other way round, same could be said of the NHS and its plethora of managers.

Reminds me of this

 

[bluenova]

Do we really need that administrative roles though, that’s were a lot could be culled, we had this in the fire service where the HR department became so bloated they reckon they had 1 HR person for every 3 operational staff, in the private sector it’s about 1 to 10. When a diversity officer is on significantly more than a frontline firefighter I question the whole ethos of it all, they had to be reminded that HR was there to support the operational personal and not the other way round, get rid of HR the fire service would still function not the other way round, same could be said of the NHS and its plethora of managers.

I read recently that one of the big problems in the NHS is that it's under-managed.

They had less managers than would be expected for an organisation that size. More managers were needed so that the medical staff could be organised more effectively, and they weren't having to do management/admin roles, which they didn't have the skills for, and which took them away from clinical work.

 

[Vic]

I read recently that one of the big problems in the NHS is that it's under-managed.

They had less managers than would be expected for an organisation that size. More managers were needed so that the medical staff could be organised more effectively, and they weren't having to do management/admin roles, which they didn't have the skills for, and which took them away from clinical work.

Anything to do with the Tory reforms to reduce the number of NHS managers which ended with doctors spending more time on managing and less time with patients?

 

[Blue Maverick]

I read recently that one of the big problems in the NHS is that it's under-managed.

They had less managers than would be expected for an organisation that size. More managers were needed so that the medical staff could be organised more effectively, and they weren't having to do management/admin roles, which they didn't have the skills for, and which took them away from clinical work.

Then do it at lower wages then, the draw in the public sector is usually what you get as well as the pay, sick pay, holidays, pension etc. it’s the pay off for lesser wages, it worked for me, some maybe it doesn’t, but that’s the choice you make.

 

[bluenova]

Then do it at lower wages then, the draw in the public sector is usually what you get as well as the pay, sick pay, holidays, pension etc. it’s the pay off for lesser wages, it worked for me, some maybe it doesn’t, but that’s the choice you make.

Do you believe that most NHS managers are overpaid?

The argument I saw was that there were around 2-3% of staff in management roles, compared with an average of nearly 10% in similar organisations. And even that figure included some clinical staff doing management roles. Given that we're talking about managing some of the most highly skilled people in the country, that we've invested huge sums in training, it makes little sense to skimp so heavily.

That kind of disparity doesn't suggest that that you're overpaying a few, when you could be paying three, four, or five times the amount a fair wage. It suggests a political choice of taking the 'easy' cuts, so you can claim your keeping clinical staff numbers up, even while the service fails.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Then do it at lower wages then, the draw in the public sector is usually what you get as well as the pay, sick pay, holidays, pension etc. it’s the pay off for lesser wages, it worked for me, some maybe it doesn’t, but that’s the choice you make.

Not sure of the point you make. You start by saying it should be done for lower wages then later said you worked in the public sector for lower wages. How low should the wages go?
Dealing with life and death of the public I want the best management not just the one that will do it for low pay because they may well get a benefit in the long run

 

[Blue Maverick]

Not sure of the point you make. You start by saying it should be done for lower wages then later said you worked in the public sector for lower wages. How low should the wages go?
Dealing with life and death of the public I want the best management not just the one that will do it for low pay because they may well get a benefit in the long run

I mean don’t expect the same as the the private sector as you get the other benefits, it’s the trade off. Oh and fuck diversity people off in every sector.

 

[PPT]

Anything to do with the Tory reforms to reduce the number of NHS managers which ended with doctors spending more time on managing and less time with patients?

Does that include the 800 Diversity & Inclusion managers in the NHS costing around £40m a year?