The Labour Government

[Lowtower]

Some good news (sort of) this morning.

The new 1 in 1 out deal with France - they send us 1 asylum seeker for every 1 boat crossing person we return, is actually a big step forward.

You might imagine a 1 for 1 swap won't reduce numbers, but of course it will, since people will be much less likely to attempt a boat crossing knowing they will simply be sent back again.

There's 2 reasons it's not great. First, the 1 we do have to take is someone likely to be eligible for asylum. The 1 coming in on a boat is likely not. So whilst the boat crossing numbers might fall, we could in theory deport most if not all those currently illegally arriving by boat. In the new system, we will be taking people we can't deport.

So the new regime is better than the current reality - that currently we don't send anyone back. But worse than the current theory whereby we should already be able to send everyone back.

The other bad thing (for me) is that it perhaps makes people less likely to vote Reform. Illegal boat crossing numbers are likely to fall, reducing the political noise over migration - Reform's key campaigning issue.

Its alright mate. Reform will come up with some other grift to sucker people in..

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Agree particularly about the enjoy discussing bit. I like the banter and "robust" debate.

I don't do social media apart from BM really, and one of the things I actually like about it is that Ric allows a good deal of abuse! Sure I get called a **** from time to time and probably get a bit shirty about it at the time, but really I don't mind. I have my views and like to express them and when people call me a tosser then fair enough.

I also bear no animosity to any posters on here. It's all a bit of fun. Some of you lot behave like right dickheads on here I think, but at the end of the day there's no-one I wouldn't enjoy a pint with. We are all Blues at the end of the day.

I post on here as I like the debate, I dont expect everyone to agree with me, and except that aside from my opinions some things I suggest may not work. Listening to others with a differing viewpoint is I find also interesting and you can learn quite a bit.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Its alright mate. Reform will come up with some other grift to sucker people in..

Hopefully.

I don't want another 30 years of flip-flopping between shite government A and shite government B. We've tried that, haven't we.

What the country needs right now is another Margaret Thatcher. Someone with gravitas, convinction, clarity of vision and an ability to bring the country with them. Our political system - and the country - needs a complete reboot. A shake-down from top to bottom. Tinkering with it, is not going to fix anything.

Keith is CLEARLY not the guy, and nor anyone on the Labour front bench. Kemi ditto. I struggle to think of anyone in either the Labour or Tory party. Farage isn't it either, but at least voting in Reform would be a start. Some of the stuff than NEEDS doing - like sacking 10's of thousands of unelected men in grey suits, repealing of dreadful laws, scaling back the state, can at least be started under Farage. The country can begin to restore hope. At the moment there is no hope. Carry on as we are and we are heading for certain bankruptcy, only unlike in the 1970's the IMF may not have the funds to bail us out. We are heading towards being Greece.

 

[M18CTID]

Good memory (and apologies if I called you an idiot!)

I genuinely thought Brexit was a terrible idea, although - and I said this repeartedly at the time - not because I was so opposed to BEING OUT, but I thought the damage in the short term in GETTING OUT would be enormous and make it not worth it for millions, even if there could be some sunny uplands at some point in years or decades to come.

Since then - and I have also posted this a number of times - I realise I was wrong. Brexit has damaged the economy yes. It has made trade with the EU more cumbersome, yes. But it has not been the absolute car crash I thought it would be. I never in a million years thought the EU would give us a trade deal that is as good as it is. And I now think we are right to leave. I got it wrong.

No need to apologise - in hindsight, I think it was a fair thing to say but perhaps could've been conveyed a bit more diplomatically! In any case, I know you through the PMs we've had regarding investment ideas.

I'm surprised you've lurched so far the other way regarding Brexit though. I've gone the opposite way to you but then again, I was never a staunch Brexiter so it hasn't taken much for me to change my mind. I posted on the Brexit thread that I see no upsides to leaving but I do see a whole load of extra hassle in my job as I'm sure millions of others do. There's a lot more work we have to do since we left when exporting to our EU customers.

That said, we're out now so we just have to get on with it but I do think greater integration with our biggest trading partner is the way to go. Even Farage was suggesting a Norway-type deal at one point before he started going down the "Hard Brexit" route.

 

[metalblue]

If that's true then it's pretty mad really. I'm in no way disputing that this person is entitled to apply for those benefits and is clearly not one would class as a benefit cheat, but as you say it propably needs tapering off somewhere. Those child care costs are ridiculous as well.

The whole benefits system is clearly very complex and does need an overhaul but it needs to be done without harming those who genuinely need help. I've got my own criticisms of it due to my other half and the 2 occasions she's applied for PIP. The first time was in the wake of a failed operation at Tameside hospital in 2010. This was supposed to be a very simple procedure but it left her with chronic abdominal pain and she's now on medication for it for the rest of her life. She lost her job at Asda a couple of years later due to not being able to go in some days when there were flare ups. She applied for PIP shortly after losing her job and she got knocked back because they believed she was still mobile enough to carry out everyday tasks, etc. There was no consideration that her condition was not really visible from the outside.

10 years afer that fuck-up, she suffered a brain haemorrhage and spent 9 days in Salford Royal. It happened while she was driving as well. I couldn't go to see her as it was during Covid. Anyway, she's suffering the effects of it to this day and will do for the rest of her life - fatigue, headaches, tinnitus, etc. So she was advised by one doctor to apply for PIP. I thought surely this time she'll be successful but no, how wrong I was. It was a phone consultation and the girl was talking to her like she was my other half's best mate. And because she told her that she's still fit enough to get out of the house on good days, they knocked her back. Apparently, because she can sometimes get out to attend a Tai Chi session then she's not entitled to it. I did tell her afterwards that she shouldn't have mentioned the Tai Chi as they'll look for any excuse not to award it but from what I could gather, even if she can get up and make a brew then that goes against her as well. The impression I got was that while she should be entitled to PIP, she'd only have a chance of getting it if she told them what things are like on her worst days and not on her better days.

Not only that, she's not entitled to any other benefits either apart from the £80 a week carer's allowance she gets for her dad. The reason that she's not entitled to anything else is because she lives with me and as I work full-time, my wages are supposed to cover us both. I wouldn't mind but while I'm on a reasonable wage, I'm still a basic rate taxpayer and since she's been unable to work since 2012, it's plunged me thousands of pounds into debt in order to keep a roof over our heads.

I’m sorry to read all of that mate. Been a bloody nightmare for you all. She was punished for being honest, what’s the alternative? Just tell them what they need to hear and people then get accused of playing the system. It’s a catch 22. In your case the trouble is now she’s told them it’s on file so you can’t go back unless things deteriorate. I know @stoneblue had a nightmare getting it with his missus, seems for somethings you have to fight tooth and nail and for others they can’t throw enough money at you. It does need a proper reboot.

Have you consulted a medical negligence law firm at all? If not might be worth having a chat with one and see what they say. You shouldn’t be up to your eyeballs in it mate because of someone else’s fuck up.

 

[metalblue]

Free child care has to be the way to get parents back into work.

Agreed, state run, be it free or at a small cost for working families (ie in work or going for interviews).

 

[threespires]

Some good news (sort of) this morning.

The new 1 in 1 out deal with France - they send us 1 asylum seeker for every 1 boat crossing person we return, is actually a big step forward.

You might imagine a 1 for 1 swap won't reduce numbers, but of course it will, since people will be much less likely to attempt a boat crossing knowing they will simply be sent back again.

There's 2 reasons it's not great. First, the 1 we do have to take is someone likely to be eligible for asylum. The 1 coming in on a boat is likely not. So whilst the boat crossing numbers might fall, we could in theory deport most if not all those currently illegally arriving by boat. In the new system, we will be taking people we can't deport.

So the new regime is better than the current reality - that currently we don't send anyone back. But worse than the current theory whereby we should already be able to send everyone back.

The other bad thing (for me) is that it perhaps makes people less likely to vote Reform. Illegal boat crossing numbers are likely to fall, reducing the political noise over migration - Reform's key campaigning issue.

Chippy, a couple of weeks back I asked, I think on the Reform thread, if any of the actual or prospective Reform voters would share what it is that positively attracts them to Reform (as opposed to it being a protest vote against the status quo) and what things give them confidence that they could do a better job (beyond simply it can't get worse). I didn't get any responses but it sounds from the above that you are more than a protest reform voter ? If so, would you be prepared to share what you find attractive about them - is it predominantly around immigration or is it other things and why would you have confidence they could make things better rather than worse? If you are prepared to share (prob best on the Reform thread) I would like to understand better.

Edit: I've just seen your most recent post which goes part way to explaining your thinking. If you feel the urge to go a bit bit deeper on why you think they would be capable I'd be interested.

 

[metalblue]

Would it work though? If the thousands hanging around in France thought there was a reasonable chance they'd be deported (where to, is another question) then maybe they'd just bugger off to Belgium, or the Netherlands or wherever? Schenghen was such a ridiculous idea in practice. Nice in theory to be able to travel around Europe unrestricted, but in practice and unworkable can of worms with respect to illegals.

Fair comments. It might reduce the small boats so the optics. At the end of the day this isn’t a UK issue alone, we do need to figure it out with our friends in Europe. So in that sense Starmer is doing a good job at improving relations, can’t knock the guy for that.

 

[stonerblue]

If that's true then it's pretty mad really. I'm in no way disputing that this person is entitled to apply for those benefits and is clearly not one would class as a benefit cheat, but as you say it propably needs tapering off somewhere. Those child care costs are ridiculous as well.

The whole benefits system is clearly very complex and does need an overhaul but it needs to be done without harming those who genuinely need help. I've got my own criticisms of it due to my other half and the 2 occasions she's applied for PIP. The first time was in the wake of a failed operation at Tameside hospital in 2010. This was supposed to be a very simple procedure but it left her with chronic abdominal pain and she's now on medication for it for the rest of her life. She lost her job at Asda a couple of years later due to not being able to go in some days when there were flare ups. She applied for PIP shortly after losing her job and she got knocked back because they believed she was still mobile enough to carry out everyday tasks, etc. There was no consideration that her condition was not really visible from the outside.

10 years afer that fuck-up, she suffered a brain haemorrhage and spent 9 days in Salford Royal. It happened while she was driving as well. I couldn't go to see her as it was during Covid. Anyway, she's suffering the effects of it to this day and will do for the rest of her life - fatigue, headaches, tinnitus, etc. So she was advised by one doctor to apply for PIP. I thought surely this time she'll be successful but no, how wrong I was. It was a phone consultation and the girl was talking to her like she was my other half's best mate. And because she told her that she's still fit enough to get out of the house on good days, they knocked her back. Apparently, because she can sometimes get out to attend a Tai Chi session then she's not entitled to it. I did tell her afterwards that she shouldn't have mentioned the Tai Chi as they'll look for any excuse not to award it but from what I could gather, even if she can get up and make a brew then that goes against her as well. The impression I got was that while she should be entitled to PIP, she'd only have a chance of getting it if she told them what things are like on her worst days and not on her better days.

Not only that, she's not entitled to any other benefits either apart from the £80 a week carer's allowance she gets for her dad. The reason that she's not entitled to anything else is because she lives with me and as I work full-time, my wages are supposed to cover us both. I wouldn't mind but while I'm on a reasonable wage, I'm still a basic rate taxpayer and since she's been unable to work since 2012, it's plunged me thousands of pounds into debt in order to keep a roof over our heads.

That's shit mate, in lots of ways.
You're right about the application process though, always use the 'worst day' symptoms when filling the forms in. I know they are a real pain but i'd urge you to try again with a claim.

 

[BobKowalski]

Hopefully.

I don't want another 30 years of flip-flopping between shite government A and shite government B. We've tried that, haven't we.

What the country needs right now is another Margaret Thatcher. Someone with gravitas, convinction, clarity of vision and an ability to bring the country with them. Our political system - and the country - needs a complete reboot. A shake-down from top to bottom. Tinkering with it, is not going to fix anything.

Keith is CLEARLY not the guy, and nor anyone on the Labour front bench. Kemi ditto. I struggle to think of anyone in either the Labour or Tory party. Farage isn't it either, but at least voting in Reform would be a start. Some of the stuff than NEEDS doing - like sacking 10's of thousands of unelected men in grey suits, repealing of dreadful laws, scaling back the state, can at least be started under Farage. The country can begin to restore hope. At the moment there is no hope. Carry on as we are and we are heading for certain bankruptcy, only unlike in the 1970's the IMF may not have the funds to bail us out. We are heading towards being Greece.

The Greek economy is expected to grow by 2.3% in 2025. We could worse than be Greece. And we tried a Reform style Govt with the Liz Truss budget. It didn’t end well.

Any other bright ideas other than sacking everyone and setting fire to everything? Perhaps you could go full Trump and put huge tariffs on imports and deny people medical care until they work a State proscribed number of hours in the fields similar to Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot who also tried this approach. Have you gone full Communist, comrade?

 

[bluenova]

Some good news (sort of) this morning.

The new 1 in 1 out deal with France - they send us 1 asylum seeker for every 1 boat crossing person we return, is actually a big step forward.

You might imagine a 1 for 1 swap won't reduce numbers, but of course it will, since people will be much less likely to attempt a boat crossing knowing they will simply be sent back again.

There's 2 reasons it's not great. First, the 1 we do have to take is someone likely to be eligible for asylum. The 1 coming in on a boat is likely not. So whilst the boat crossing numbers might fall, we could in theory deport most if not all those currently illegally arriving by boat. In the new system, we will be taking people we can't deport.

So the new regime is better than the current reality - that currently we don't send anyone back. But worse than the current theory whereby we should already be able to send everyone back.

The other bad thing (for me) is that it perhaps makes people less likely to vote Reform. Illegal boat crossing numbers are likely to fall, reducing the political noise over migration - Reform's key campaigning issue.

About 70% of people coming in small boats have successfully claimed asylum - that's between 2018-2024, so would include the huge spike in Albanians that we had a couple of years ago. The figure would likely be even higher without that. If you look at the countries where they come from, it's not surprising - lots of war zones, rather than simply poor countries.

I can't help you with your second problem.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Farage isn't it either, but at least voting in Reform would be a start. Some of the stuff than NEEDS doing - like sacking 10's of thousands of unelected men in grey suits, repealing of dreadful laws, scaling back the state, can at least be started under Farage. The country can begin to restore hope. At the moment there is no hope. Carry on as we are and we are heading for certain bankruptcy, only unlike in the 1970's the IMF may not have the funds to bail us out. We are heading towards being Greece.

Voting in Reform is voting in Farage, the guy that bought us Brexit through lies and is the reason for a lot with what you are angry about - especially the increase in migration.

 

[BridgyDids]

Good question. But something clearly changed. You will probably argue it's because Starmer has improved relations so much (hurrah, well done Keith). My suspicion is that he probably has but at what cost. Like off the record agreement to the Youth Mobiliy scheme etc.

Remember Keith is on record saying something along the lines that he'd like to take UK-EU integration so far that no-one will be able to tell we'd had Brexit. How democratic of him. Not.

You are so close to saying what had changed recently, in fact, unprompted you do actually mention it.

Now who ran on that single mandate for years? Could it be the solution to this new problem?!

 

[stonerblue]

Agreed, state run, be it free or at a small cost for working families (ie in work or going for interviews).

It's a no brainer for me.
how is a single parent expected to get any work when wages won't cover the cost of cc
I looked after (and still do a bit) my grandkids from day one because their parents both worked full time but nursery costs would've wiped out one of thems wages.

 

[metalblue]

So the answer to the Reform agenda (which in your words would make people less likely to vote Reform) is to work in cooperation with our European neighbours?

Well, this is a riddle within a puzzle.

What stopped that happening until recently?

TBF it was mostly the rather unfriendly way the Tory government treated them rather than Brexit per-se. Sunak at least tried to improve things in his short time but Starmer has shown what can be done in a similar time line so fair play to him.

But your general point about Reform telling you they’ll solve the problem they helped create is, indeed, a bit brazen.

 

[Lowtower]

Hopefully.

I don't want another 30 years of flip-flopping between shite government A and shite government B. We've tried that, haven't we.

What the country needs right now is another Margaret Thatcher. Someone with gravitas, convinction, clarity of vision and an ability to bring the country with them. Our political system - and the country - needs a complete reboot. A shake-down from top to bottom. Tinkering with it, is not going to fix anything.

Keith is CLEARLY not the guy, and nor anyone on the Labour front bench. Kemi ditto. I struggle to think of anyone in either the Labour or Tory party. Farage isn't it either, but at least voting in Reform would be a start. Some of the stuff than NEEDS doing - like sacking 10's of thousands of unelected men in grey suits, repealing of dreadful laws, scaling back the state, can at least be started under Farage. The country can begin to restore hope. At the moment there is no hope. Carry on as we are and we are heading for certain bankruptcy, only unlike in the 1970's the IMF may not have the funds to bail us out. We are heading towards being Greece.

Probably setting your expectations of our Nige a bit high there mate.

If the boat grift gets binned, then I imagine that something that appeals to their core vote will replace it, like a referendum on the Pub smoking ban, or a Wetherspoons on every corner...

 

[BobKowalski]

I post on here as I like the debate, I dont expect everyone to agree with me, and except that aside from my opinions some things I suggest may not work. Listening to others with a differing viewpoint is I find also interesting and you can learn quite a bit.

Given the state of most posts on here, I admire your optimism and confidence in your fellow man :)

 

[metalblue]

Agree particularly about the enjoy discussing bit. I like the banter and "robust" debate.

I don't do social media apart from BM really, and one of the things I actually like about it is that Ric allows a good deal of abuse! Sure I get called a **** from time to time and probably get a bit shirty about it at the time, but really I don't mind. I have my views and like to express them and when people call me a tosser then fair enough.

I also bear no animosity to any posters on here. It's all a bit of fun. Some of you lot behave like right dickheads on here I think, but at the end of the day there's no-one I wouldn't enjoy a pint with. We are all Blues at the end of the day.

Ya soppy ****.

 

[metalblue]

It's a no brainer for me.
how is a single parent expected to get any work when wages won't cover the cost of cc
I looked after (and still do a bit) my grandkids from day one because their parents both worked full time but nursery costs would've wiped out one of thems wages.

Fair play to you and your missus mate as I know you’ve got your own stuff going on.

I’m not close enough to the details but, in your opinion, do you think the nursery costs are “fair” or are they fleecing working people because they know they don’t have a choice? If it’s the former then it’s a problem of low wage and unlikely to change soon, if the latter it’s a problem of regulation and something could be done reasonably quickly.

 

[Craig]

Its alright mate. Reform will come up with some other grift to sucker people in..

Haha exactly. That racist twat will just ever go which way the winds blowing. Even they wouldn’t really want immigration to completely stop anyway despite their constant posturing. Where would they go then if people realised that some poor sod on a boat isn’t the main or only reason this country is struggling?

They wouldn’t like it the public then started asking for their rich backers to be taxed heavier on their assets to stop inequality growing at such a rapid rate in the country.