The Labour Government

[metalblue]

The country is goosed vut the Nhs is criminally underfunded.
15th July turned up for an appointment with letter and text message not on the system.Got lucky as consultant saw me.
Operation booked for 15th August on the 16th of July.Since then have had 3 calls moving it to the 1st,6th and now 15 th August.
Luckily nothing 2 serious but its a shambles.

First of all good luck with it all blue, hope it goes well.

The NHS is not really criminally underfunded, the first part you’ve experienced is plain old incompetence which is rife in the system - no amount of money is fixing that

My FIL is getting letters for appointments with no time on the letter, when he phones up is told “no, you don’t have an appointment that day”, received a letter telling him an appointment was cancelled, called up to be told it wasn’t cancelled and so on and so forth. I’ve never known anything like it.

The moving of surgery is around managing “theatre time”, a bit annoying for you and those it impacts but nothing especially wrong with that part.

 

[Chippy_boy]

First of all good luck with it all blue, hope it goes well.

The NHS is not really criminally underfunded, the first part you’ve experienced is plain old incompetence which is rife in the system - no amount of money is fixing that

My FIL is getting letters for appointments with no time on the letter, when he phones up is told “no, you don’t have an appointment that day”, received a letter telling him an appointment was cancelled, called up to be told it wasn’t cancelled and so on and so forth. I’ve never known anything like it.

The moving of surgery is around managing “theatre time”, a bit annoying for you and those it impacts but nothing especially wrong with that part.

Totally agree, and share very similar experiences.

 

[Blue Maverick]

I love the idea of the NHS and why it was setup, however I think it’s time has come in its current form, the strain it’s under with added mental health and every other thing added to it, it will collapse. You only have to watch the numerous 999 programs to see how it can’t cope, people thinking they are entitled to an ambulance for a stubbed toe and you know what they are, when Covid happened A&E was empty because people managed, they weren’t phoning up because they needed an aspirin! I don’t know what the answer is, unless it’s some sort of private health care hybrid.
I think it’s a general reflection of society and the self entitlement of a lot of people, they abuse the system because they are allowed, my mum and dad are getting on a bit now and my dad is in a bad way but he still stubbornly tries not to call them when he really should, unlike the younger generations.
I support the doctors right to strike but I do think after the last rise they are taking the piss a bit, but, the rise they got is what they should had under the tories for all this years of austerity. Maybe be a bit more realistic in what you ask for, the country is on its arse due to the tories and I can’t see Labour improving it for decades if ever.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I love the idea of the NHS and why it was setup, however I think it’s time has come in its current form, the strain it’s under with added mental health and every other thing added to it, it will collapse. You only have to watch the numerous 999 programs to see how it can’t cope, people thinking they are entitled to an ambulance for a stubbed toe and you know what they are, when Covid happened A&E was empty because people managed, they weren’t phoning up because they needed an aspirin! I don’t know what the answer is, unless it’s some sort of private health care hybrid.
I think it’s a general reflection of society and the self entitlement of a lot of people, they abuse the system because they are allowed, my mum and dad are getting on a bit now and my dad is in a bad way but he still stubbornly tries not to call them when he really should, unlike the younger generations.
I support the doctors right to strike but I do think after the last rise they are taking the piss a bit, but, the rise they got is what they should had under the tories for all this years of austerity. Maybe be a bit more realistic in what you ask for, the country is on its arse due to the tories and I can’t see Labour improving it for decades if ever.

Agree with all that apart from the last bit. I fear Streeting will cave in, at least in part. Labour have always struggled to constrain public spending and I don't see that changing any time soon.

 

[Kompany Car]

A few thoughts in relation to the Junior (Resident) Doctors strike.

When talking about doctors people do seem to conflate junior doctors with GPs, senior doctors, consultants and surgeons. Junior doctors are just starting their career and still undergoing training and as with any professional job you are generally underpaid for what you do whilst in your first few years but are remunerated much more handsomely later. Senior nurses are often significantly more capable and in some cases more qualified than junior doctors, yet will never have salaries matching those of a Junior Doctor after 7yrs training.

Contrary to popular belief there is not a shortage of doctors in the UK, there are doctors who are unemployed. What there is, is a shortage of funding for additional doctors in the NHS. So more roles needs opening for doctors, which doesn't come down to paying junior doctors more, its related to the structural funding of the NHS.

The argument that its much better to be a doctor in Aus and Nz again is a fallacy. Whilst pay is initially better, the occupational pension is no where near as generous and remembering that if you then choose to retire in Australia the state pension is also means tested. Overall the package is broadly similar and thats before you factor in the outrageous house prices in Australia.

The strikes will result in a backlog which can only be managed by increased amounts of working overtime at enhanced rates, therefore the strike action not only causes severe pressure on the stretched NHS budget but also results in a nice bit of overtime for the junior doctors when they return.

Considering the pay awards that they have been given over the past 2 yrs and the state of UK finances, the strikes seem, at least to me an act of greed rather than need. On the whole they seem to get a pretty good deal.

They are on an almost guaranteed career path which allows them to earn a salary which would put them well within the top 2% of the population along with an exceptionally generous pension. This is before the option to do private consultation later in their career in conjunction with their NHS job which would push them well into the top 1%.

 

[stonerblue]

The country is goosed vut the Nhs is criminally underfunded.
15th July turned up for an appointment with letter and text message not on the system.Got lucky as consultant saw me.
Operation booked for 15th August on the 16th of July.Since then have had 3 calls moving it to the 1st,6th and now 15 th August.
Luckily nothing 2 serious but its a shambles.

You should be pleased that your ailment is not serious. It's when you get a phione call asking you to go in straight away that you should start to worry.

 

[hampshireblue]

A few thoughts in relation to the Junior (Resident) Doctors strike.

When talking about doctors people do seem to conflate junior doctors with GPs, senior doctors, consultants and surgeons. Junior doctors are just starting their career and still undergoing training and as with any professional job you are generally underpaid for what you do whilst in your first few years but are remunerated much more handsomely later. Senior nurses are often significantly more capable and in some cases more qualified than junior doctors, yet will never have salaries matching those of a Junior Doctor after 7yrs training.

Contrary to popular belief there is not a shortage of doctors in the UK, there are doctors who are unemployed. What there is, is a shortage of funding for additional doctors in the NHS. So more roles needs opening for doctors, which doesn't come down to paying junior doctors more, its related to the structural funding of the NHS.

The argument that its much better to be a doctor in Aus and Nz again is a fallacy. Whilst pay is initially better, the occupational pension is no where near as generous and remembering that if you then choose to retire in Australia the state pension is also means tested. Overall the package is broadly similar and thats before you factor in the outrageous house prices in Australia.

The strikes will result in a backlog which can only be managed by increased amounts of working overtime at enhanced rates, therefore the strike action not only causes severe pressure on the stretched NHS budget but also results in a nice bit of overtime for the junior doctors when they return.

Considering the pay awards that they have been given over the past 2 yrs and the state of UK finances, the strikes seem, at least to me an act of greed rather than need. On the whole they seem to get a pretty good deal.

They are on an almost guaranteed career path which allows them to earn a salary which would put them well within the top 2% of the population along with an exceptionally generous pension. This is before the option to do private consultation later in their career in conjunction with their NHS job which would push them well into the top 1%.

I agree. Whilst I was in support of them last year that is not the case now. There is a time when a union has to step back and be pragmatic. Now is the time to go for the "soft" WP issues that will have little effect on the organisation and its' budgets. As an when finances allow, they can then go back on their pay crusade.

 

[M18CTID]

A few thoughts in relation to the Junior (Resident) Doctors strike.

When talking about doctors people do seem to conflate junior doctors with GPs, senior doctors, consultants and surgeons. Junior doctors are just starting their career and still undergoing training and as with any professional job you are generally underpaid for what you do whilst in your first few years but are remunerated much more handsomely later. Senior nurses are often significantly more capable and in some cases more qualified than junior doctors, yet will never have salaries matching those of a Junior Doctor after 7yrs training.

Contrary to popular belief there is not a shortage of doctors in the UK, there are doctors who are unemployed. What there is, is a shortage of funding for additional doctors in the NHS. So more roles needs opening for doctors, which doesn't come down to paying junior doctors more, its related to the structural funding of the NHS.

The argument that its much better to be a doctor in Aus and Nz again is a fallacy. Whilst pay is initially better, the occupational pension is no where near as generous and remembering that if you then choose to retire in Australia the state pension is also means tested. Overall the package is broadly similar and thats before you factor in the outrageous house prices in Australia.

The strikes will result in a backlog which can only be managed by increased amounts of working overtime at enhanced rates, therefore the strike action not only causes severe pressure on the stretched NHS budget but also results in a nice bit of overtime for the junior doctors when they return.

Considering the pay awards that they have been given over the past 2 yrs and the state of UK finances, the strikes seem, at least to me an act of greed rather than need. On the whole they seem to get a pretty good deal.

They are on an almost guaranteed career path which allows them to earn a salary which would put them well within the top 2% of the population along with an exceptionally generous pension. This is before the option to do private consultation later in their career in conjunction with their NHS job which would push them well into the top 1%.

Thanks for the insight. I'm no expert on the situation, but watching C4 News last night it seems that there isn't a great deal of sympathy for them this time amongst those who work in the NHS, unlike last time when there was. The feeling is that they got their significant pay rise last year so why are they asking for another, greater, amount just 12 months later? From what I can see, they have a bigger case regarding conditions because apparently some of the stuff the government promised last year regarding conditions hasn't happened, and the government have said that they're willing to negotiate on that but not on pay.

 

[Chippy_boy]

A few thoughts in relation to the Junior (Resident) Doctors strike.

When talking about doctors people do seem to conflate junior doctors with GPs, senior doctors, consultants and surgeons. Junior doctors are just starting their career and still undergoing training and as with any professional job you are generally underpaid for what you do whilst in your first few years but are remunerated much more handsomely later. Senior nurses are often significantly more capable and in some cases more qualified than junior doctors, yet will never have salaries matching those of a Junior Doctor after 7yrs training.

Contrary to popular belief there is not a shortage of doctors in the UK, there are doctors who are unemployed. What there is, is a shortage of funding for additional doctors in the NHS. So more roles needs opening for doctors, which doesn't come down to paying junior doctors more, its related to the structural funding of the NHS.

The argument that its much better to be a doctor in Aus and Nz again is a fallacy. Whilst pay is initially better, the occupational pension is no where near as generous and remembering that if you then choose to retire in Australia the state pension is also means tested. Overall the package is broadly similar and thats before you factor in the outrageous house prices in Australia.

The strikes will result in a backlog which can only be managed by increased amounts of working overtime at enhanced rates, therefore the strike action not only causes severe pressure on the stretched NHS budget but also results in a nice bit of overtime for the junior doctors when they return.

Considering the pay awards that they have been given over the past 2 yrs and the state of UK finances, the strikes seem, at least to me an act of greed rather than need. On the whole they seem to get a pretty good deal.

They are on an almost guaranteed career path which allows them to earn a salary which would put them well within the top 2% of the population along with an exceptionally generous pension. This is before the option to do private consultation later in their career in conjunction with their NHS job which would push them well into the top 1%.

Superb post!

I wonder how supportive the public would be if they realised that the very minimum a resident doctor will earn in their first year is realistically around £45,000. And that whilst still training that will rise to between £60,000 to £85,000. Or that they will go on to be paid £100,000+, and perhaps as much again for private work. Not to mention the 23.7% employers pension contribution.

I worked for 40+ years in the private sector and the very highest employers pension contribution I got was 9%, and more usually 4 or 5%. And with a top class degree from a leading university, my starting pay was £5,000 per year (£19,600 in real terms) and I got no pension at all. I am not saying poor me - I've done OK since. Merely that the doctors are taking the piss.

 

[M18CTID]

Superb post!

I wonder how supportive the public would be if they realised that the very minimum a resident doctor will earn in their first year is realistically around £45,000. And that whilst still training that will rise to between £60,000 to £85,000. Or that they will go on to be paid £100,000+, and perhaps as much again for private work. Not to mention the 23.7% employers pension contribution.

I worked for 40+ years in the private sector and the very highest employers pension contribution I got was 9%, and more usually 4 or 5%.

Count yourself lucky - my employer contributes 3% to mine. And that's only because they have to by law!

 

[west didsblue]

Only if hypocrisy or double-stsndards don't exist. Where's the outrage amongst Labour supporters over his corruption?

If I was a member of Unite I’d be fucking furious as it’s Unite members he’s fleeced. Absolutely nothing to do with taxpayers money so it’s an idiotic comparison.

 

[Chippy_boy]

From what I can see, they have a bigger case regarding conditions because apparently some of the stuff the government promised last year regarding conditions hasn't happened, and the government have said that they're willing to negotiate on that but not on pay.

The BMA Resident Doctor's spokesman on BBC breakfast this raised the conditions point. But came across loud and clear that they are demanding more money and strongly implied more strikes unless/until they get it.

 

[blue b4 the moon]

I love the idea of the NHS and why it was setup, however I think it’s time has come in its current form, the strain it’s under with added mental health and every other thing added to it, it will collapse. You only have to watch the numerous 999 programs to see how it can’t cope, people thinking they are entitled to an ambulance for a stubbed toe and you know what they are, when Covid happened A&E was empty because people managed, they weren’t phoning up because they needed an aspirin! I don’t know what the answer is, unless it’s some sort of private health care hybrid.
I think it’s a general reflection of society and the self entitlement of a lot of people, they abuse the system because they are allowed, my mum and dad are getting on a bit now and my dad is in a bad way but he still stubbornly tries not to call them when he really should, unlike the younger generations.
I support the doctors right to strike but I do think after the last rise they are taking the piss a bit, but, the rise they got is what they should had under the tories for all this years of austerity. Maybe be a bit more realistic in what you ask for, the country is on its arse due to the tories and I can’t see Labour improving it for decades if ever.

As an ex-public employee like yourself I'm broadly in support of the Doctors but in turn they really should be aware that ALL public employees have been shat upon for years and years & that 'the money tree' isn't infinite.

Other Government staff have also fallen massively behind and to attempt a big double take isn't playing the game.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Count yourself lucky - my employer contributes 3% to mine. And that's only because they have to by law!

Exactly. Strangely the doctors don't mention their 27%. They bang on about pay reduction in real terms compared to 2008. Since then we've had a global financial crisis which crippled the UK economy, years of austerity following that, then Brexit, COVID and then Ukraine. WTF do they expect??? Half the country has seen a real terms squeeze.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I'm just reminded that the government had to scrap the maximum £1m pension pot tax-free limit, specifically because of the vast numbers of doctors it was impacting who had already amassed their £1m pension. How many people have that???

 

[hampshireblue]

Superb post!

I wonder how supportive the public would be if they realised that the very minimum a resident doctor will earn in their first year is realistically around £45,000. And that whilst still training that will rise to between £60,000 to £85,000. Or that they will go on to be paid £100,000+, and perhaps as much again for private work. Not to mention the 23.7% employers pension contribution.

I worked for 40+ years in the private sector and the very highest employers pension contribution I got was 9%, and more usually 4 or 5%. And with a top class degree from a leading university, my starting pay was £5,000 per year (£19,600 in real terms) and I got no pension at all. I am not saying poor me - I've done OK since. Merely that the doctors are taking the piss.

So?

Average salary is around £35000. They don't get to become a doctor and earning £45000 until at least 5 years into their career progression. Subsequent training can last another 7-8 years on top, so 13 years into their career. Their pension payments are over £10%.

You chose your career path, as did I. You went to university-for free-despite telling us a couple of weeks ago when you said : "I am 64 and have benefitted from none of the things you mention"- one of which was a free university course.

I too was on about £5k a year when I started work in 1979 but didn't go to university. I always contributed a minimum of 10% to a DB pension which has worked out well. Did you always contribute?

I don't agree with what the Drs are doing right now, but neither should they be compared to some other random job that you and I may have done.

Any future pay rises they do get should be linked to a reduction in their student debt as well as some form of bonding system that they have to work for the NHS for a minimum period of time.

 

[metalblue]

Totally agree, and share very similar experiences.

I read your post mate, it just shows this isn’t isolated experiences but wide spread.

FIL is being investigated for various things and under two different hospitals, both as bad as each other.

Antidotally it feels like you’ve got to fight tooth and nail just to any sort of service from the system right now, especially if you’re a bit complex.

 

[hampshireblue]

I'm just reminded that the government had to scrap the maximum £1m pension pot tax-free limit, specifically because of the vast numbers of doctors it was impacting who had already amassed their £1m pension. How many people have that???

You'd be surprised. The way the benefits of DB schemes (a muliplier x years in service) were calculated meant that anyone on over about £50k fell into that category. I know someone who benefitted from the removal of the LTA to the tune of £750000 when they reached 75, when a further calculation used to be carried out. He was not a doctor.

 

[metalblue]

So?

Average salary is around £35000. They don't get to become a doctor and earning £45000 until at least 5 years into their career progression. Subsequent training can last another 7-8 years on top, so 13 years into their career. Their pension payments are over £10%.

You chose your career path, as did I. You went to university-for free-despite telling us a couple of weeks ago when you said : "I am 64 and have benefitted from none of the things you mention"- one of which was a free university course.

I too was on about £5k a year when I started work in 1979 but didn't go to university. I always contributed a minimum of 10% to a DB pension which has worked out well. Did you always contribute?

I don't agree with what the Drs are doing right now, but neither should they be compared to some other random job that you and I may have done.

Any future pay rises they do get should be linked to a reduction in their student debt as well as some form of bonding system that they have to work for the NHS for a minimum period of time.

You’re being very disingenuous when you say their pay is £35k, you’ve entirely ignored unsociable pay - as a more realistic figure The Nuffield Trust state they estimate a FY1 receives £45,900.

I do agree things like student debt should be removed after a set period of working in NHS. I’d argue same for nurses, teachers, etc etc.

Oh and you contributed to a DB pension and it worked out well? Colour me shocked!!!!

 

[metalblue]

A few thoughts in relation to the Junior (Resident) Doctors strike.

When talking about doctors people do seem to conflate junior doctors with GPs, senior doctors, consultants and surgeons. Junior doctors are just starting their career and still undergoing training and as with any professional job you are generally underpaid for what you do whilst in your first few years but are remunerated much more handsomely later. Senior nurses are often significantly more capable and in some cases more qualified than junior doctors, yet will never have salaries matching those of a Junior Doctor after 7yrs training.

Contrary to popular belief there is not a shortage of doctors in the UK, there are doctors who are unemployed. What there is, is a shortage of funding for additional doctors in the NHS. So more roles needs opening for doctors, which doesn't come down to paying junior doctors more, its related to the structural funding of the NHS.

The argument that its much better to be a doctor in Aus and Nz again is a fallacy. Whilst pay is initially better, the occupational pension is no where near as generous and remembering that if you then choose to retire in Australia the state pension is also means tested. Overall the package is broadly similar and thats before you factor in the outrageous house prices in Australia.

The strikes will result in a backlog which can only be managed by increased amounts of working overtime at enhanced rates, therefore the strike action not only causes severe pressure on the stretched NHS budget but also results in a nice bit of overtime for the junior doctors when they return.

Considering the pay awards that they have been given over the past 2 yrs and the state of UK finances, the strikes seem, at least to me an act of greed rather than need. On the whole they seem to get a pretty good deal.

They are on an almost guaranteed career path which allows them to earn a salary which would put them well within the top 2% of the population along with an exceptionally generous pension. This is before the option to do private consultation later in their career in conjunction with their NHS job which would push them well into the top 1%.

100% the strike is “greed” based on state of public finances but when you capitulate to the last strike saying how it made sense due to costs etc you can’t be surprised when they come back for more!!

Many on here, yourself included I believe, warned this would happen https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c19kdyyxzr3o