The Labour Government

hilts said:
Yet I don't remember you saying high immigration was negative news. I wonder why? What could be the reason behind this complete .change in outlook? It's a mystery for sure.
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I’ve never been ‘anti’ immigration but equally I don’t pretend high levels of migration and open borders is a good thing - some form of control and balance is needed and I believe Labour are out to achieve that.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
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I’ve never been ‘anti’ immigration but equally I don’t pretend high levels of migration and open borders is a good thing - some form of control and balance is needed and I believe Labour are out to achieve that.
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Yep I still cant see a post where you state anything above the current figure is bad and needs reducing.
 
I love all the anger over the OBR letter, which was common knowledge prior to the pre and budget speech.

It’s almost as if the government has understood how the media in this country works and proper had them over.

‘Eh you guys, there’s a possible option that we may raise income tax and break our manifesto policy … even though you should already know that we’ve come in on budget ;-).’
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
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You can tell it’s Friday night.
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Not the weather for putting up flags.
 
Chippy_boy said:
No, because it was such an inane question underserving of a response AND/OR a lame attempt at baiting. But nevertheless I will indulge you to show what a daft post it was:

Here’s a clear, data-driven list of countries whose economies collapsed in a severe, systemic way — whether through hyperinflation, state failure, war, or debt defaults. I’ve included key statistics like GDP contractions, inflation levels, currency losses, and unemployment.

This is not exhaustive, but it covers the most widely recognised “economic collapses” in the modern era.

Looking at Greece specifically, they are recovering from their situation with the help of massive IMF bailout. If we go that way, the IMF cannot afford it - our economy is too big for them to save.



Major Economic Collapses (with Stats)​


1. Zimbabwe (2007–2009) — Hyperinflation Collapse​


Type: Complete monetary collapse, hyperinflation
Key Stats:


  • Hyperinflation peaked at 89.7 sextillion percent (10²¹%) per year (Nov 2008)
  • Prices doubled every 24 hours
  • GDP fell 17% in 2008
  • Central bank issued 100 trillion dollar notes
    Outcome:     Abandoned its currency; switched to USD/ZAR.


2. Venezuela (2014–present) — Hyperinflation + State Collapse​


Type: Hyperinflation, collapse of oil sector, institutional failure
Key Stats:


  • Inflation peaked at 10,000,000% in 2018
  • GDP contracted by ~75% between 2014–2022
  • Oil production down from 3.5m bpd (1998) to ~700k bpd (2020)
  • Poverty rate > 90%
    Outcome:     Ongoing crisis; partial dollarisation.


3. Argentina (2001–2002) — Sovereign Default + Banking Collapse​


Type: Currency crisis, default, depression
Key Stats:


  • Peso lost 75% of value in 2002
  • GDP contracted 20% in 4 years
  • Unemployment hit 25%
  • Sovereign default of $100bn (largest at the time)
    Outcome: Social and political crisis; long recovery.


4. Greece (2010–2015) — Debt Crisis​


Type: Sovereign debt collapse, depression
Key Stats:


  • GDP fell 25% between 2008–2016
  • Unemployment peaked at 27.5%
  • Youth unemployment over 60%
  • Public debt > 180% of GDP
    Outcome:     Bailouts, austerity, long-term stagnation.


5. Soviet Union (1990–1992) — Systemic Collapse​


Type: Complete economic + political disintegration
Key Stats:


  • GDP contracted 40% in early 1990s (post-collapse)
  • Industrial output fell 50%
  • Inflation exceeded 2,500% in 1992 (Russia)
    Outcome: End of USSR; transition shock.


6. Weimar Germany (1921–1923) — Classical Hyperinflation​


Type: Hyperinflationary collapse
Key Stats:


  • Prices doubled every 3.7 days
  • Inflation reached 29,500% per month (late 1923)
  • 1 USD = 4.2 trillion marks by Nov 1923
    Outcome: Currency replaced by the Rentenmark.


7. Yugoslavia (1992–1994) — World’s Worst Hyperinflation​


Type: Hyperinflation + civil war
Key Stats:


  • Inflation of 5 × 10¹⁵% per month (Jan 1994)
  • Prices doubled every 34 hours
  • Currency redenominated 5 times
    Outcome:     Currency collapse; country dissolved.


8. North Korea (1990s) — Famine + Economic Collapse​


Type: State collapse + famine
Key Stats:


  • GDP fell by ~35% between 1990–1998
  • Famine deaths: 600,000–2,000,000
  • Industrial output collapsed by 50%
    Outcome:     Partial recovery later, but chronic stagnation.


9. Lebanon (2019–present) — Banking + Currency Collapse​


Type: Currency crash, banking insolvency
Key Stats:


  • Lebanese pound lost ~98% of value
  • Inflation over 200% annually
  • GDP shrank from $55bn (2018) to $23bn (2021)
  • Poverty > 70%
    Outcome:     Ongoing severe crisis.


10. Sri Lanka (2022) — First Sovereign Default in History​


Type: Forex crisis, energy collapse
Key Stats:


  • Foreign reserves fell to $50m
  • Inflation hit 70%
  • Economy contracted 7.8% in 2022
    Outcome:     IMF programme; partial stabilisation.


11. Iceland (2008–2010) — Banking System Collapse​


Type: Entire banking sector failed
Key Stats:


  • Banking assets = 10× national GDP collapsed
  • GDP contracted 10%
  • Krona fell ~50%
    Outcome:     Capital controls; surprisingly fast recovery.


12. Myanmar (2021–present) — Coup-Induced Collapse​


Type: Political collapse + economic freefall
Key Stats:


  • GDP fell 18% in 2021 alone
  • Currency depreciated 50%
  • Inflation over 30%
    Outcome:     Ongoing conflict, collapse continues.


13. Haiti (multiple periods) — State Failure​


Type: Political instability, economic collapse
Key Stats (recent decade):


  • GDP per capita now lower than in the 1970s
  • Inflation ~ 50%
  • State capacity nearly nonexistent
    Outcome: Chronic instability.
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Yes, I get that countries collapse like that, but they aren't bankrupt. Governments create money when they need it. Hyperinflation is the result when it gets out of hand, but they aren't bankrupt in the sense you or I would be if we ran out of money and couldn't service our debts. We cant, as individuals, create money.

You said in an earlier post we were, as a country, heading for bankruptcy. I merely pointed out that it is impossible.
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
I love all the anger over the OBR letter, which was common knowledge prior to the pre and budget speech.

It’s almost as if the government has understood how the media in this country works and proper had them over.

‘Eh you guys, there’s a possible option that we may raise income tax and break our manifesto policy … even though you should already know that we’ve come in on budget ;-).’
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So in your mind the government thought fuck it let’s delay the budget, trail income tax rises, make retail suffer with the uncertainty, etc etc all for a bit of a laugh with the media. I thought the adults were supposed to be in charge.

In summary, you’re wrong, very wrong.
 
so no black hole, the only black hole is housing the migrants but they cant say that can they, so attack the hard working with tax hikes, dress it up as to pay fiscal debt and divert the money via benefits to those that arive in the UK
Great plan Baldrick but she's been caught
 
metalblue said:
So in your mind the government thought fuck it let’s delay the budget, trail income tax rises, make retail suffer with the uncertainty, etc etc all for a bit of a laugh with the media. I thought the adults were supposed to be in charge.

In summary, you’re wrong, very wrong.
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Just a little joke, mate.

At the time, I asked the question why many in the media were going ballistic regarding a supposed rise in income tax. I’d already listened to an expert who’d stated that the ‘black hole’ had shrunk to a negligible level and Reeves would be setting the budget for future spend, not trying to clear the past.

Personally, I just didn’t understand the uproar, and still don’t. If I understood that the media furore was a load of bollox, why didn’t they?
 
marco said:
so no black hole, the only black hole is housing the migrants but they cant say that can they, so attack the hard working with tax hikes, dress it up as to pay fiscal debt and divert the money via benefits to those that arive in the UK
Great plan Baldrick but she's been caught
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Step away from the migrant bollox. Yes, it costs, but there is far more to do to ensure our future children have some form of social contract and not paying for our failures.

Defence, NHS, education, national debt, it all needs sorting.
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
Step away from the migrant bollox. Yes, it costs, but there is far more to do to ensure our future children have some form of social contract and not paying for our failures.

Defence, NHS, education, national debt, it all needs sorting.
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all that comes under one thing 'national debt' are the migrants free? do they wave a fucking wond and hey presto bill paid, its a fiscal fact get over it
 
marco said:
so no black hole, the only black hole is housing the migrants but they cant say that can they, so attack the hard working with tax hikes, dress it up as to pay fiscal debt and divert the money via benefits to those that arive in the UK
Great plan Baldrick but she's been caught
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Don't forget to have a go at the feckless, workshy Brits, those getting child benefit earning nearly £60k a year, all those over 60s getting free prescriptions, all those in full time employment getting UC..... all of these groups rely in some way or another on some form of "hard working" funded benefits and you choose to select a group of migrants.

I'll be surprised if most people on this forum are not getting some form of hard working funded benefits although many may choose not to acknowledge it.

I think your singling out one group says alot about you as a person.
 
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The Future’s Blue! said:
I love all the anger over the OBR letter, which was common knowledge prior to the pre and budget speech.

It’s almost as if the government has understood how the media in this country works and proper had them over.

‘Eh you guys, there’s a possible option that we may raise income tax and break our manifesto policy … even though you should already know that we’ve come in on budget ;-).’
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That simply isn’t true and you can’t be aware of the timeline of OBR communications if you actually believe that.

Reeves was aware of the impact of the productivity downgrade being partially offset by other factors as early as 17 September. At that time, she was projected to miss her fiscal targets - marginally - without action.

By the end of October the OBR’s forecast had improved and even without any policy changes, the OBR told Reeves she would still meet her fiscal rules.

Reeves however still gave her pre-budget speech on 4th November, focusing on how the OBR productivity downgrade had severely damaged the fiscal position and pushed the apparent need to raise income tax to the press.

On 10 November she told the BBC that maintaining the manifesto pledges on tax would mean that deep cuts to capital spending would be required. That simply wasn’t true, and it was a clear and obvious lie. Even without any tax measures, let alone ones that broke manifesto commitments, Reeves knew that the fiscal rules would still be met with the existing profile of capital spending.

She then u-turned on the need for an income tax rise on the evening of 13 November, and it was at that point that the improved OBR forecast was leaked to the FT. The gilt market sold off aggressively on 14 November and obviously wouldn’t have done so if the extent of the improvement in the OBR forecast was common knowledge, as you claim.

It’s the Chancellor’s job to support growth in the economy and confidence in the fiscal position. Since last year’s Budget, the gilt interest cost forecast for the next five years has increased by a cumulative £41bn. We’ll all be paying for that. The economy stalled in Q3 - GDP was lower in September than it was in June - and unemployment has increased in every month of the past year.

Do you think Reeves’ actions over the past few months have helped to boost growth and lower borrowing costs? Do you believe that Reeves should have deliberately and dishonestly provided a misleading picture of the news she was receiving from the OBR for political purposes?

If a Tory Chancellor had deliberately misled the public and markets in order to push through an unnecessary cut to public spending, all the lefties on here would be jumping up and down. As it is, they’ve nothing to say about a Chancellor actually choosing to exaggerate the weakness of the public finances, unnecessarily increasing the cost of borrowing, undermining confidence across the economy and deliberately misleading the public.

Reeves should be fired, immediately.
 
NPBlue said:
Yes, I get that countries collapse like that, but they aren't bankrupt. Governments create money when they need it. Hyperinflation is the result when it gets out of hand, but they aren't bankrupt in the sense you or I would be if we ran out of money and couldn't service our debts. We cant, as individuals, create money.

You said in an earlier post we were, as a country, heading for bankruptcy. I merely pointed out that it is impossible.
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They cease to be able to function, unable to pay public services etc etc, in other words mass unemployment with no money to support them, virtually no public services whatsoever, anything they have goes to army to protect them

I mean technically they might not be declared “bankrupt” like you or I would be but for all intents and purposes they are.
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
Just a little joke, mate.

At the time, I asked the question why many in the media were going ballistic regarding a supposed rise in income tax. I’d already listened to an expert who’d stated that the ‘black hole’ had shrunk to a negligible level and Reeves would be setting the budget for future spend, not trying to clear the past.

Personally, I just didn’t understand the uproar, and still don’t. If I understood that the media furore was a load of bollox, why didn’t they?
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I did wonder mate, thought maybe it was a back from pub post ;)

I can’t go in to all the details but the treasury was working on raising £30bn, that was the envelope requested. Those options presented as some baskets including things like income tax raises were leaked to the media pretty much throughout the process.

The main question being levelled with this OBR is did she mislead markets and that is a serious allegation.
 
metalblue said:
So in your mind the government thought fuck it let’s delay the budget, trail income tax rises, make retail suffer with the uncertainty, etc etc all for a bit of a laugh with the media. I thought the adults were supposed to be in charge.

In summary, you’re wrong, very wrong.
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You have to remember just how clever these guys are mate.

Throw in a dash of the comical Ali and everything is always on plan and as designed.
 
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