The Labour Party

I don’t think he’s that stupid that he doesn’t know what antisemitism is/looks like completely but he has got it wrong without knowing I think.

Like that graffiti depicting rich men playing monopoly on a board above a load of people - my first thought was antisemitism but I think Corbyn just saw it as a pop at the rich. It was clear to me that the figures were clearly a Jewish stereotype and resembled Nazi propaganda.

You do have a point with his naivety and I don’t think he’s a full blown Jew hater but he does often let his views on the Israeli Palestine conflict get the better of him which is a worry, as it means he’s turning a blind eye to a major issue in the party.

I don't really comment on The Labour Party or Corbyn for that matter as I really don't know enough about the local politics in Britain.
However, do people in general, not confuse condemnation of Israel or particularly it's treatment of the Palestinian people, with anti-semitism?
Personally I think, in the state of Israel, the Jewish people have become what they fled from and despise. Whether that is is just Zionism or Judaism per se, or something else, I don't know.
But I do feel more Jewish people themselves should speak out and distance themselves from what has gone on for decades in Israel.
It has been a land grab since it's inception.
 
I don't really comment on The Labour Party or Corbyn for that matter as I really don't know enough about the local politics in Britain.
However, do people in general, not confuse condemnation of Israel or particularly it's treatment of the Palestinian people, with anti-semitism?
Personally I think, in the state of Israel, the Jewish people have become what they fled from and despise. Whether that is is just Zionism or Judaism per se, or something else, I don't know.
But I do feel more Jewish people themselves should speak out and distance themselves from what has gone on for decades in Israel.
It has been a land grab since it's inception.

I openly criticise the acts of the IDF, Israeli politicians and some Israeli citizens views, that I’ve seen on documentaries, comments online or in the media and on interviews.

A quick look on the Netanyahu thread will show that I’ve called him “an awful human being”.

However what I take exception to is non-Israeli Jews being expected to pass comment, apologise or explain the actions of Israel or that an Israeli citizen HAS to have responsibility for what a soldier has done.

Many Israelis protest against the aggression shown by the IDF.

To suggest a Jewish person is doing the work of Israel or is somewhat responsible for their actions as a state, is antisemitic.

I also absolutely disagree they are behaving from what they’ve fled. Again describing or attributing Israelis to Nazis is antisemitism.

The problem has been that some factions of the Labour Party, of which I normally vote for and it’s membership have taken their support of Palestine to a level that is too strong and this has turned into a hatred of Israel and even in some instances reached a level of hating Jews generally, whether they’re Israeli or British.

This is unacceptable.
 
I openly criticise the acts of the IDF, Israeli politicians and some Israeli citizens views, that I’ve seen on documentaries, comments online or in the media and on interviews.

A quick look on the Netanyahu thread will show that I’ve called him “an awful human being”.

However what I take exception to is non-Israeli Jews being expected to pass comment, apologise or explain the actions of Israel or that an Israeli citizen HAS to have responsibility for what a soldier has done.

Many Israelis protest against the aggression shown by the IDF.

To suggest a Jewish person is doing the work of Israel or is somewhat responsible for their actions as a state, is antisemitic.

I also absolutely disagree they are behaving from what they’ve fled. Again describing or attributing Israelis to Nazis is antisemitism.

The problem has been that some factions of the Labour Party, of which I normally vote for and it’s membership have taken their support of Palestine to a level that is too strong and this has turned into a hatred of Israel and even in some instances reached a level of hating Jews generally, whether they’re Israeli or British.

This is unacceptable.
I'm not suggesting that you are directing that at me, but just to be sure, I'm not saying that Jewish people are responsible for the actions of Israel.
I would though welcome more of a voice from those of them that do not endorse the states action and I am aware that they do exist.
I've most recently observed an Israeli journalist being interviewed on CNN and found the airing most welcome.
 
I don't really comment on The Labour Party or Corbyn for that matter as I really don't know enough about the local politics in Britain.
However, do people in general, not confuse condemnation of Israel or particularly it's treatment of the Palestinian people, with anti-semitism?

I think there's something in that, in the sense that a limited number of people may view any criticism directly and specifically aimed at Israel as simply being anti-Semitism. In my own experience a somewhat wider problem has been the tendency of a larger minority to allow their sympathy for the Palestinian people to become warped into a more generalised 'jewish = bad' outlook. Possibly this fire is fanned because the most vocal non-Israeli supporters of Israeli policy vis a vis Palestine in my experience tend to be jewish themselves.

I completely agree with you that it is perfectly legitimate to criticise the foreign policy of an independent state, and you should be able to do that in the case of Israel without being considered anti-Semitic, just as you should be able to criticise the foreign policy of any other nation. But there are sadly too many in my experience who lose sight, so it seems, of where the line is between saying 'bad israel' and 'bad jews'.
 
I'm not suggesting that you are directing that at me, but just to be sure, I'm not saying that Jewish people are responsible for the actions of Israel.
I would though welcome more of a voice from those of them that do not endorse the states action and I am aware that they do exist.
I've most recently observed an Israeli journalist being interviewed on CNN and found the airing most welcome.

It wasn’t specific to you, no, more of a general point to people asking why.

I would say that Jewish people are very critical on Israel, well the ones I know are anyway but we shouldn’t expect them to say anything at all, as they’re not Israelis, they’re British.

If a white supremacist athiests in America form a terrorist organisation and start killing ethnic minorities, I’m not presumed to have to come out and condemn them, they’re nothing to do with me and their actions aren’t my responsibility.

This is exactly the same as British Jews.

It’s why I am absolutely disgusted that Trump has just said that American Jews’s Prime Minister is Netanyahu.
 
It wasn’t specific to you, no, more of a general point to people asking why.

I would say that Jewish people are very critical on Israel, well the ones I know are anyway but we shouldn’t expect them to say anything at all, as they’re not Israelis, they’re British.

If a white supremacist athiests in America form a terrorist organisation and start killing ethnic minorities, I’m not presumed to have to come out and condemn them, they’re nothing to do with me and their actions aren’t my responsibility.

This is exactly the same as British Jews.

It’s why I am absolutely disgusted that Trump has just said that American Jews’s Prime Minister is Netanyahu.
Are you Jewish yourself?
 
I don't really comment on The Labour Party or Corbyn for that matter as I really don't know enough about the local politics in Britain.
However, do people in general, not confuse condemnation of Israel or particularly it's treatment of the Palestinian people, with anti-semitism?
Personally I think, in the state of Israel, the Jewish people have become what they fled from and despise. Whether that is is just Zionism or Judaism per se, or something else, I don't know.
But I do feel more Jewish people themselves should speak out and distance themselves from what has gone on for decades in Israel.
It has been a land grab since it's inception.

Great post. Bang on.
 
This antisemitism row is all well and good, but it's distracting from the real reasons as to why Labour are unelectable in their current form.

Can there be anyone in this country who does not understand that money does not grow on trees, and therefore, in the long run whatever you spend has to be paid for by money from somewhere? Surely this is a base upon which we can all agree? Yes in the short term you can borrow more and more, but you can't do that forever. In the long run, you have to balance the books. Agreed?

So the only way we get to spend more over the long term is if we generate more tax revenue. The best way to achieve that, is by having a strong and growing economy, i.e. businesses producing, selling, exporting, hiring more. You need a set of policies directly aimed at supporting businesses, helping them grow, provide an environment for them to do well. Unfortunately this is completely lacking from Labour thinking. In fact the likes of McDonnell thinks the opposite. He's quite happy for businesses to do badly since it favours his wider ambition of everything returning to state ownership.

So instead of pro-business policies, we have stuff like increasing corporation tax; limiting the amounts companies can pay their own executives; increasing income tax so employers have to pay their employees more; increasing employment costs with higher minimum wages; employment restrictions such as ending zero-hours contracts; increases on stamp duty for financial services firms.

Irrespective of the moral rights or wrongs or intentions good or bad, these are policies which make it harder for business to do well, not easier. They discourage investment into the UK, not encourage it. At the very time when inward investment is vital since we are already losing investors because of Brexit. It is a set of policies which will ensure that the economy, over time, does less well.

And since the economy would do less well, then tax receipts would fall. The only way to compensate for that would be more borrowing (which we agree can't go on forever, right), or higher tax rates. But increasing tax rates reduces the amount of money people and businesses have to spend on goods, r&d, hiring people etc. So this depresses the economy further.

It is an inevitable downward spiral until the economy is so borked, people are so pissed off, and Labour get kicked out. This is the inexorable fate of every Labour government. It is no coincidence that Labour ALWAYS leave office with more people unemployed that when they came into power. It's not down to "bad luck" - they are too consistent at it for it to be luck. It is a direct consequence of them following the wrong policies, every time.

The only exception I can think of who really got this was Tony Blair - the most successful Labour leader ever, and arguably one of the best PM's in a long time. He understood the importance of a pro-business agenda. And guess what, he did pretty well, didn't he? 3 election victories, huge increases in spending on the NHS, schools and everthing else.

And now look at Corbyn and McDonnell. What are they going to do to support businesses and help the country grow? Fuck all. In fact the very opposite. If ever elected they will trash the economy and make everyone worse off. This isn't a possibility: it's a cast iron certainty.
 
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This antisemitism row is all well and good, but it's distracting from the real reasons as to why Labour are unelectable in their current form.

Can there be anyone in this country who does not understand that money does not grow on trees, and therefore, in the long run whatever you spend has to be paid for by money from somewhere? Surely this is a base upon which we can all agree? Yes in the short term you can borrow more and more, but you can't do that forever. In the long run, you have to balance the books. Agreed?

So the only way we get to spend more over the long term is if we generate more tax revenue. The best way to achieve that, is by having a strong and growing economy, i.e. businesses producing, selling, exporting, hiring more. You need a set of policies directly aimed at supporting businesses, helping them grow, provide an environment for them to do well. Unfortunately this is completely lacking from Labour thinking. In fact the likes of McDonnell thinks the opposite. He's quite happy for businesses to do badly since it favours his wider ambition of everything returning to state ownership.

So instead of pro-business policies, we have stuff like increasing corporation tax; limiting the amounts companies can pay their own executives; increasing income tax so employers have to pay their employees more; increasing employment costs with higher minimum wages; employment restrictions such as ending zero-hours contracts; increases on stamp duty for financial services firms.

Irrespective of the moral rights or wrongs or intentions good or bad, these are policies which make it harder for business to do well, not easier. They discourage investment into the UK, not encourage it. At the very time when inward investment is vital since we are already losing investors because of Brexit. It is a set of policies which will ensure that the economy, over time, does less well.

And since the economy would do less well, then tax receipts would fall. The only way to compensate for that would be more borrowing (which we agree can't go on forever, right), or higher tax rates. But increasing tax rates reduces the amount of money people and businesses have to spend on goods, r&d, hiring people etc. So this depresses the economy further.

It is an inevitable downward spiral until the economy is so borked, people are so pissed off, and Labour get kicked out. This is the inexorable fate of every Labour government. It is no coincidence that Labour ALWAYS leave office with more people unemployed that when they came into power. It's not down to "bad luck" - they are too consistent at it for it to be luck. It is a direct consequence of them following the wrong policies, every time.

The only exception I can think of who really got this was Tony Blair - the most successful Labour leader ever, and arguably one of the best PM's in a long time. He understood the importance of a pro-business agenda. And guess what, he did pretty well, didn't he? 3 election victories, huge increases in spending on the NHS, schools and everthing else.

And now look at Corbyn and McDonnell. What are they going to do to support businesses and help the country grow? Fuck all. In fact the very opposite. If ever elected they will trash the economy and make everyone worse off. This isn't a possibility: it's a cast iron certainty.

A good post and very hard to argue with it, although I am sure those with more idealist views will do so.

One thing you didn't mention and I feel this isn't getting mentioned enough anywhere is AI and AI will effect us all. Putting the argument that the moment people are happy with Gig work and some very poor working conditions so no need for companies to invest in AI, they will sooner or later.

*Once AI comes into effect we will have 2 problems as far as I can see 1) people may not be able to afford what the robots are making but 2) we will need to make sure companies are paying the tax in the country in which the AI is actually working to make up for the short fall of PAYE tax into the economy. No good Starbucks having 100s of shops, very few employees and all their tax going to Ireland, for example

I have no idea how much work is going on within companies and universities to mitigate the human cost of AI but a concentration of focus on tax laws, should be a priority

As far a Labour go, I do not see them embracing the future at all. The NHS needs paying for and 'taxing the rich' won't cut it. Housing needs addressing and as you say, stifling businesses will not help their employees increase their buying power

In short, voting Labour at the moment is similar to Brexit. A wish-list which does not take into account reality

*this is not my field of expertise so would happily be corrected/educated on this
 


How anyone can find this rhetoric acceptable I’ll never know


How is this not anti-Semitic? Labour's own adopted IHRA guidelines state:

Making mendacious, dehumanising, demonising, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
 
How is this not anti-Semitic? Labour's own adopted IHRA guidelines state:

Making mendacious, dehumanising, demonising, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

Exactly.
 
This antisemitism row is all well and good, but it's distracting from the real reasons as to why Labour are unelectable in their current form.

Can there be anyone in this country who does not understand that money does not grow on trees, and therefore, in the long run whatever you spend has to be paid for by money from somewhere? Surely this is a base upon which we can all agree? Yes in the short term you can borrow more and more, but you can't do that forever. In the long run, you have to balance the books. Agreed?

So the only way we get to spend more over the long term is if we generate more tax revenue. The best way to achieve that, is by having a strong and growing economy, i.e. businesses producing, selling, exporting, hiring more. You need a set of policies directly aimed at supporting businesses, helping them grow, provide an environment for them to do well. Unfortunately this is completely lacking from Labour thinking. In fact the likes of McDonnell thinks the opposite. He's quite happy for businesses to do badly since it favours his wider ambition of everything returning to state ownership.

So instead of pro-business policies, we have stuff like increasing corporation tax; limiting the amounts companies can pay their own executives; increasing income tax so employers have to pay their employees more; increasing employment costs with higher minimum wages; employment restrictions such as ending zero-hours contracts; increases on stamp duty for financial services firms.

Irrespective of the moral rights or wrongs or intentions good or bad, these are policies which make it harder for business to do well, not easier. They discourage investment into the UK, not encourage it. At the very time when inward investment is vital since we are already losing investors because of Brexit. It is a set of policies which will ensure that the economy, over time, does less well.

And since the economy would do less well, then tax receipts would fall. The only way to compensate for that would be more borrowing (which we agree can't go on forever, right), or higher tax rates. But increasing tax rates reduces the amount of money people and businesses have to spend on goods, r&d, hiring people etc. So this depresses the economy further.

It is an inevitable downward spiral until the economy is so borked, people are so pissed off, and Labour get kicked out. This is the inexorable fate of every Labour government. It is no coincidence that Labour ALWAYS leave office with more people unemployed that when they came into power. It's not down to "bad luck" - they are too consistent at it for it to be luck. It is a direct consequence of them following the wrong policies, every time.

The only exception I can think of who really got this was Tony Blair - the most successful Labour leader ever, and arguably one of the best PM's in a long time. He understood the importance of a pro-business agenda. And guess what, he did pretty well, didn't he? 3 election victories, huge increases in spending on the NHS, schools and everthing else.

And now look at Corbyn and McDonnell. What are they going to do to support businesses and help the country grow? Fuck all. In fact the very opposite. If ever elected they will trash the economy and make everyone worse off. This isn't a possibility: it's a cast iron certainty.


An economy is the aggregate of all that is produced by the workers of a country be they involved in production or provide a service, whether this production/service is done by a private company or indeed the state.

Hairdressers get paid for cutting hair. With this money they buy other products and services. They also pay tax. When it is time to visit hospital they get treated by a doctor who is paid by the government with the taxes paid by the hairdresser. In this case the government is acting as an employer and providing a service.

A countries wealth is the aggregate of all this activity. Now you can argue that centralized planning is ineffic¡ent which is a different story. But some private sector companies have bad ideas too. The Soviets rapid growth in 30 years from peasant society to world superpower suggests that central planning sometimes works. They put people to work who would have otherwise been idle. Ditto Roosevelt´s New Deal.

The issue is thus getting people working, productively, whether this is organized privately or publicly.
 
A good post and very hard to argue with it, although I am sure those with more idealist views will do so.

One thing you didn't mention and I feel this isn't getting mentioned enough anywhere is AI and AI will effect us all. Putting the argument that the moment people are happy with Gig work and some very poor working conditions so no need for companies to invest in AI, they will sooner or later.

*Once AI comes into effect we will have 2 problems as far as I can see 1) people may not be able to afford what the robots are making but 2) we will need to make sure companies are paying the tax in the country in which the AI is actually working to make up for the short fall of PAYE tax into the economy. No good Starbucks having 100s of shops, very few employees and all their tax going to Ireland, for example

I have no idea how much work is going on within companies and universities to mitigate the human cost of AI but a concentration of focus on tax laws, should be a priority

As far a Labour go, I do not see them embracing the future at all. The NHS needs paying for and 'taxing the rich' won't cut it. Housing needs addressing and as you say, stifling businesses will not help their employees increase their buying power

In short, voting Labour at the moment is similar to Brexit. A wish-list which does not take into account reality

*this is not my field of expertise so would happily be corrected/educated on this

There's going to be huge demand for robot makers. There's the niche to get into.
 
An economy is the aggregate of all that is produced by the workers of a country be they involved in production or provide a service, whether this production/service is done by a private company or indeed the state.

Hairdressers get paid for cutting hair. With this money they buy other products and services. They also pay tax. When it is time to visit hospital they get treated by a doctor who is paid by the government with the taxes paid by the hairdresser. In this case the government is acting as an employer and providing a service.

A countries wealth is the aggregate of all this activity. Now you can argue that centralized planning is ineffic¡ent which is a different story. But some private sector companies have bad ideas too. The Soviets rapid growth in 30 years from peasant society to world superpower suggests that central planning sometimes works. They put people to work who would have otherwise been idle. Ditto Roosevelt´s New Deal.

The issue is thus getting people working, productively, whether this is organized privately or publicly.
And since people working productively, privately is a key part of the equation, policies which damage that, are a bad idea. Policies which discourage hiring more people. Policies which cause businesses to favour investing in other countries, rather than our own. Policies which make the goods we sell more expensive, less competitive and therefore policies which depress sales.

None of this is sensible, is it.

But anyway, the theory is one thing, the empirical evidence is another. Show me a successful Marxist economy. The policies McDonnell would prefer. In fact show me a Labour administration which lowered unemployment over their term in office.
 
2) we will need to make sure companies are paying the tax in the country in which the AI is actually working to make up for the short fall of PAYE tax into the economy. No good Starbucks having 100s of shops, very few employees and all their tax going to Ireland, for example
What's wrong with that?
 

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