The Labour Party

[Ban-jani]

I'm here and making contingency plans for our family evacuation to Mustique along with the Royal Household.

I thought Labour were inevitably going to lose George?

 

[George Hannah]

It's a mute point.

He resigned from the Labour Party in December 2018.

mute the moot pf

 

[The perfect fumble]

mute the moot pf

LOL....

More water in it.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

It's a mute point.

He resigned from the Labour Party in December 2018.

Haha, lol!

The sexual harassment claim happened when he was representing the Labour Party. Are they saying it is nothing to do with them now? Is the victim not bothered any more?

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

A timely reminder as to why the millions of Labour voters who voted to leave shouldn't touch Labour with a barge pole right now.

I doubt most of them have any inkling who he is to be honest.

I’ve defended him on here but even I sat there on the shitter this morning, reading the news, thinking what the fuck his he doing.

There is an interesting scheme that he may be looking to push whereby given BoJo has lost control and an election potentially solves nothing the rebels could push on beyond October 31st with a compromise deal (allow the moderate brexiteers, cross party, to have a go) and then put that to the people in a 2nd ref (Labour could have a free vote - and live with the outcome either way). As with every brexit deal that doesn't involve sticking two fingers up at johnny foreigners it will get ripped to shreds by the ERG and the like so the outcome is almost nailed on as remain. Then have a GE.

This could all be done within 6 months - maybe within 3 months and all with BoJo forced to resign and some form of rebel backed executive in power where BoJo would then become leader of the opposition.

I like it - however I doubt Corbyn will go for it as it forces to many difficult positions on him.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You posted it following it too, when I mentioned the headline.

Anyway, I’m not here to squabble, I’d rather debate the specific policies, most of which are very much needed.

Fair enough.

 

[Ban-jani]

I doubt most of them have any inkling who he is to be honest.



There is an interesting scheme that he may be looking to push whereby given BoJo has lost control and an election potentially solves nothing the rebels could push on beyond October 31st with a compromise deal (allow the moderate brexiteers, cross party, to have a go) and then put that to the people in a 2nd ref (Labour could have a free vote - and live with the outcome either way). As with every brexit deal that doesn't involve sticking two fingers up at johnny foreigners it will get ripped to shreds by the ERG and the like so the outcome is almost nailed on as remain. Then have a GE.

This could all be done within 6 months - maybe within 3 months and all with BoJo forced to resign and some form of rebel backed executive in power where BoJo would then become leader of the opposition.

I like it - however I doubt Corbyn will go for it as it forces to many difficult positions on him.

That’s a good point but it seems like complex and unclear compared to what Corbyn is looking to do.

I think a GE between Oct 31st and Xmas is highly likely at this point and the direction of Brexit highly depends on the result.

 

[Rascal]

That's not a fat lot of use the poor sods who have to pay more taxes today. The benefits to society as a whole are something that we'd see over decades.

And given the increased tax burden on everyone, do you think it's right that people who are unable to go to university, should pay for those who do want to?

I thought you would appreciate that investment takes time to reap rewards. As a capitalist surely you must support that approach, its just the same as investing in anything else.

And yes I do think its right that society pays for people to go to University, I don't use the M4 but I have helped pay for it. Its what society does.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

That’s a good point but it seems like complex and unclear compared to what Corbyn is looking to do.

I think a GE between Oct 31st and Xmas is highly likely at this point and the direction of Brexit highly depends on the result.

The reality of the HoC has shifted away from the tories. BoJo has had 6 votes and lost them all - his actions to expel tories have chopped his own arms off. The rebels are clearly in control of the votes and working effectively but they are not in control of the executive office. Given how resounding the victory has been the temptation is to push on and take the exec control. However Corbyn has been a passenger not an architect of these moves. And that is where it falls down - he might not want to lead it and those in it don't want him to lead it.

 

[Rascal]

£1bn Oligarch levy hmmm
I see you missed off the repeal of TU legislation and a Union sponsored Secretary of State for Employment Rights in the Cabinet
and what's does the # mean btw? Is it something to do with banning grouse shooting?

Good point George

Nice to have you on board. :)

I will forward your membership pack ASAP

 

[The perfect fumble]

Haha, lol!

The sexual harassment claim happened when he was representing the Labour Party. Are they saying it is nothing to do with them now? Is the victim not bothered any more?

I don't know the answer to that.

Codes of conduct in the Labour Party are not the rule of law, once Lewis left the party that was the end of it.

If the complainant did not pursue an action in the court that is their affair.

Ken Livingstone was suspended from the Labour Party because of accusations of anti-Semitism, he resigned prior to his appeal being heard.

Anti-Semitism is considered a hate crime in law and Livingstone could have been tried in the courts, but despite a number of prominent individuals and publications that tried and convicted him in the court of public opinion, no one actually took him to court.

Funny old world.

 

[Rascal]

It's well balanced when it doesn't have any costs next to it.

What Labour fail to realise is people do not consider Corbyn or his front bench team to be competent. Coming up with such a massive list of expenditure and then putting the likes of Diane Abbott, Richard Burgon and Barry Gardner in the position of delivering is a huge turn off to many. Me included and I was a Labour voter pre Corbyn.

Labour's problems are not policy - they are the calibre of people. Corbybn as top of the list. I doubt I will vote Labour again until he is gone. Thankfully my local MP defected to TIG/Change so I have a decent alternative.

That's your prerogative of course and symptomatic of our politics, we vote for people not policy.

 

[Chippy_boy]

That’s a good point but it seems like complex and unclear compared to what Corbyn is looking to do.

I think a GE between Oct 31st and Xmas is highly likely at this point and the direction of Brexit highly depends on the result.

I think it's actually pretty debatable.

As I understand it, doesn't the FTPA require a 25 working day gap between agreeing the GE and it happening? The currently prorogued parliament doesn't return until October 14th, so the absolute soonest we could have it would be November 18th - more realistically 19th since we never have them on Mondays.

And that assumes there's a call for a GE on that Monday 14th. If there isn't, and Corbyn wants to try a no confidence motion, then even if he wins, then there's a 2 week gap before a GE and then the 5 week gap after that. That would push us into December.

And for whatever reason, we don't in modern times, have GE's in December. The last one was in 1923.

So we could very possibly be looking at January or February now.

 

[Ban-jani]

I think it's actually pretty debatable.

As I understand it, doesn't the FTPA require a 25 working day gap between agreeing the GE and it happening? The currently prorogued parliament doesn't return until October 14th, so the absolute soonest we could have it would be November 18th - more realistically 19th since we never have them on Mondays.

And that assumes there's a call for a GE on that Monday 14th. If there isn't, and Corbyn wants to try a no confidence motion, then even if he wins, then there's a 2 week gap before a GE and then the 5 week gap after that. That would push us into December.

And for whatever reason, we don't in modern times, have GE's in December. The last one was in 1923.

So we could very possibly be looking at January or February now.

Fair enough I won’t argue that. One is definitely coming at the soonest possible time, once that date has gone.

I think Johnson needs it too.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

I don't know the answer to that.

Codes of conduct in the Labour Party are not the rule of law, once Lewis left the party that was the end of it.

If the complainant did not pursue an action in the court that is their affair.

Ken Livingstone was suspended from the Labour Party because of accusations of anti-Semitism, he resigned prior to his appeal being heard.

Anti-Semitism is considered a hate crime in law and Livingstone could have been tried in the courts, but despite a number of prominent individuals and publications that tried and convicted him in the court of public opinion, no one actually took him to court.

Funny old world.

Point of order on racism and criminality.

It is not a crime to be racist, you can say things that are racist and not commit a crime, you can hold racist views and stand with racists or defend racists if that is your thing.
Something becomes a hate crime when it is targeted and there is a victim or criminal damage and racism forms part of the motivation.

The fact that Ken Livingstone would not be convicted of a hate crime does not mean that he is not an antisemite. Which he clearly is.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Point of order on racism and criminality.

It is not a crime to be racist, you can say things that are racist and not commit a crime, you can hold racist views and stand with racists or defend racists if that is your thing.
Something becomes a hate crime when it is targeted and there is a victim or criminal damage and racism forms part of the motivation.

The fact that Ken Livingstone would not be convicted of a hate crime does not mean that he is not an antisemite. Which he clearly is.

I seem to recall there was some fluff and nonsense regarding a Jewish Daily Mail reporter stalking Livingstone, and Livingstone giving as good as he got, but it's all noises off either way.

I know Livingstone, he's no anti-Semite, he resigned because Labour would have recognised that fact and re-instated him, so he resigned to avoid the flack Labour would've received.

 

[M18CTID]

I thought you would appreciate that investment takes time to reap rewards. As a capitalist surely you must support that approach, its just the same as investing in anything else.

And yes I do think its right that society pays for people to go to University, I don't use the M4 but I have helped pay for it. Its what society does.

Students get access to subsidised beer and subsidised kebabs, whereas you and I don't, so I say fuck 'em and double their tuition fees rather than scrap them!

 

[cibaman]

I think it's actually pretty debatable.

As I understand it, doesn't the FTPA require a 25 working day gap between agreeing the GE and it happening? The currently prorogued parliament doesn't return until October 14th, so the absolute soonest we could have it would be November 18th - more realistically 19th since we never have them on Mondays.

And that assumes there's a call for a GE on that Monday 14th. If there isn't, and Corbyn wants to try a no confidence motion, then even if he wins, then there's a 2 week gap before a GE and then the 5 week gap after that. That would push us into December.

And for whatever reason, we don't in modern times, have GE's in December. The last one was in 1923.

So we could very possibly be looking at January or February now.

We don’t have elections in December. In normal times.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Fair enough I won’t argue that. One is definitely coming at the soonest possible time, once that date has gone.

I think Johnson needs it too.

Johnson does need it too, but he isn't going to call a GE he expects to lose.

I've honestly no clue how this is all going to pan out (and who was it who said "anyone who does, hasn't been following it closely enough).

But at the moment, I've no idea whether Johnson is going to return with a deal from the EU or not. He just might. And if he does, and he has the DUP support for it, what will the ERG do? They'd surely like a clean break and would not be keen on a deal which ties us loosely to the EU. But on the other hand, they don't want a Corbyn government and Brexit cancelled either, so they may support it, as Rees Mogg did with the last of May's attempts.

And would any Labour MPs support it, rather than risk a GE that Johnson might win and an ensuing No Deal?

And let's suppose Johnson does pull off a miracle, gets a deal with the EU, gets it through Parliament and then we leave on October 31st. Hero!??? Well not according to the Brexit party I would imagine. So then we have a GE, and what do they do?

 

[inbetween]

I thought you would appreciate that investment takes time to reap rewards. As a capitalist surely you must support that approach, its just the same as investing in anything else.

And yes I do think its right that society pays for people to go to University, I don't use the M4 but I have helped pay for it. Its what society does.

I personally am in favour of scrapping fees, I think education should be free and money should never be a barrier to it.

The issue I have however is people misunderstand what universities exist for. They do not exist to educate people, they exist to be a money making machine. Education is an after thought in these institutions.

They are more interested in where the funding and grant money is coming from and also how they can sell research projects commercially.

Universities could opt to reduce fees according to how much a course should cost but instead they charge the absolute maximum just because they can.

In 2017, Manchester University ran a surplus of £35m AFTER reinvestment of profits and has £450m in cash reserves. So why can it afford to pay staff £400k+ a year but not make an effort to reduce tuition fees?