The Labour Party

[Rascal]

A reasonable and thoughtful reply, but immigration and free movement are not the same thing. Free movement will help counter shortages in seasonal labour where as immigration is a long term effect on society. A majority of those who have used free movement to come here have provided a net benefit to the UK economy, the picture painted though is entirely different and people easily confuse asylum seekers and migrants from war affected countries with immigration. The immigration figures are also skewed by including students as immigrants rather than as products of free movement.

There is nothing in the proposals that supports extending immigration but Farage's immigration fear poster looms large just as his disgraceful lies about Turkish people coming her in droves. There is nothing in the proposal about welfare rights for newly arrived people,

They are but proposals and I expect flesh to be added to the bones, it saddens me that as a nation we are becoming so insular based on lies, posters and populist rhetoric. We are better than that and if the government had actually used the powers it had, then it would never have been an issue, but people were too busy blaming the EU rather than looking into reality.

Having said all that I am in favour of immigration controls based on something similar to the Australian system as long as we continue and enhance the numbers of asylum seekers that we grant refuge.

 

[Bluemanc100]

Socialists always want people to pay there fair share so we have a more equitable society that benefits every person not just the few,

It takes all sorts but the socialist model will reward many for sitting on their arses won’t it?

The offer of “free stuff” regardless of the motivation is hooking naive voters into Labour Party membership I guess?

 

[Ban-jani]

It takes all sorts but the socialist model will reward many for sitting on their arses won’t it?

The offer of “free stuff” regardless of the motivation is hooking naive voters into Labour Party membership I guess?

Within the next few decades more and more people will be sat on their arses and will have no choice, AI will see to that and once it’s in, it’ll snowball.

When it comes to the “scroungers” now, it’s a drop in the ocean when it comes to government expenditure. We’ve lost more fannying about with Brexit since 2016, and we’ve not left yet, than we’ve spent on the unemployed.

Over 70% of the welfare state is spent on people’s pensions.

If Labour do look after the unemployed more, which any government should do, the cost will be a lot lower than you think.

Reading some of the comments from former Thomas Cook staff and how they cannot afford their next mortgage payment, it got me thinking their must be a safety net when people are plunged into these situations.

 

[blueinsa]

It takes all sorts but the socialist model will reward many for sitting on their arses won’t it?

The offer of “free stuff” regardless of the motivation is hooking naive voters into Labour Party membership I guess?

Huge amounts being spent currently on a digital campaign aimed at students to register to vote for Labour.....

 

[Rascal]

It takes all sorts but the socialist model will reward many for sitting on their arses won’t it?

The offer of “free stuff” regardless of the motivation is hooking naive voters into Labour Party membership I guess?

No, it abhors laziness. Every worker should work is the real Socialist mantra.

 

[robbieh]

A wide range of sources is good, it helps formulate opinion. I will read almost anything that informs and watch stuff on you tube from Brendan O'Neill to Owen Jones and then make my own mind up as to who and what I believe to be right

I'd be interested in your take on Spiked as you mention the editor.
Marxist beginnings, funded by Koch brothers, climate change deniers. Confuses the hell out of me.

 

[Tanzeylee]

Within the next few decades more and more people will be sat on their arses and will have no choice, AI will see to that and once it’s in, it’ll snowball.

When it comes to the “scroungers” now, it’s a drop in the ocean when it comes to government expenditure. We’ve lost more fannying about with Brexit since 2016, and we’ve not left yet, than we’ve spent on the unemployed.

Over 70% of the welfare state is spent on people’s pensions.

If Labour do look after the unemployed more, which any government should do, the cost will be a lot lower than you think.

Reading some of the comments from former Thomas Cook staff and how they cannot afford their next mortgage payment, it got me thinking their must be a safety net when people are plunged into these situations.

There is a safety net for people in the Thomas Cook situation, but some people see it as a lifestyle choice

 

[blueinsa]

I'd be interested in your take on Spiked as you mention the editor.
Marxist beginnings, funded by Koch brothers, climate change deniers. Confuses the hell out of me.

Your political education under the supreme leader is beautiful to watch as it unfolds before our eyes.

 

[robbieh]

Your political education under the supreme leader is beautiful to watch as it unfolds before our eyes.

The reason leftists argue, not on here mind, too many fascists to deal with, is that there are many interpretations of Marx’s work. Socialists in my experience read voraciously while my rightish friends pick up the Mail or Torygraph and wouldn't know their Hayek from there Any Rand.
We can all learn and should never stop trying.

 

[Bluemanc100]

No, it abhors laziness. Every worker should work is the real Socialist mantra.

Then it’s a pity that the workers themselves in our country would exploit that system... some are shirkers... not workers

 

[Bluemanc100]

Within the next few decades more and more people will be sat on their arses and will have no choice, AI will see to that and once it’s in, it’ll snowball.

When it comes to the “scroungers” now, it’s a drop in the ocean when it comes to government expenditure. We’ve lost more fannying about with Brexit since 2016, and we’ve not left yet, than we’ve spent on the unemployed.

Over 70% of the welfare state is spent on people’s pensions.

If Labour do look after the unemployed more, which any government should do, the cost will be a lot lower than you think.

Reading some of the comments from former Thomas Cook staff and how they cannot afford their next mortgage payment, it got me thinking their must be a safety net when people are plunged into these situations.

I agree about the shitload of money we’ve wasted on Brexit but I don’t believe in the socialist model... it hasn’t worked anywhere and therefore you’d have pick and choose which elements you apply.. that’s not an ideology, that’s a potential mess

 

[blueinsa]

The reason leftists argue, not on here mind, too many fascists to deal with, is that there are many interpretations of Marx’s work. Socialists in my experience read voraciously while my rightish friends pick up the Mail or Torygraph and wouldn't know their Hayek from there Any Rand.
We can all learn and should never stop trying.

 

[Ban-jani]

I agree about the shitload of money we’ve wasted on Brexit but I don’t believe in the socialist model... it hasn’t worked anywhere and therefore you’d have pick and choose which elements you apply.. that’s not an ideology, that’s a potential mess

Fair enough, you don’t have to. I’m not a socialist and neither is Labour’s manifesto.

It’s social democracy, similar to Nordic countries.

 

[Ban-jani]

It’s a good gif but please don’t overuse it.

The first time was very funny.

 

[blueinsa]

It’s a good gif but please don’t overuse it.

The first time was very funny.

Apologies.

 

[Ban-jani]

Apologies.

Accepted

 

[ROCKET80]

I have spoken to plenty of immigrants and have also seen what happened at Grenfell, I have seen numerous houses turned into virtual workers hostels for immigrant workers housing maybe 20 of these blokes causing upset to families in the area. We cannot house these people in any decent manner. Do you dispute this? Sure professional immigrants in some cases maybe able to afford to get better accommodation but this still flows downwards and is at least partly to blame for the amount of homeless on the streets. The amount of young people such as my two lads who have no chance of being able to get social housing or indeed afford to get their own places. One working full time the other doing A levels.

Of course I agree that immigration has been weaponised however the left are as guilty as the right in this.

Saying we are at breaking point is not disingenous it is fact, if you had seen old folks lined up in corridors in the hospitals or even tried gaining access to medical treatment, driven on our roads you would know this. How much a strict immigration policy allowing people in to help remedy this will help to alter this I honestly dont know.

I don't get what Grenfell and workers hostels has to do with immigration. That is surely more of an issue around unscrupulous landlords. This is also the case for student accommodation.

Also immigrants have little impact on social housing, most don't qualify for it. I don't see how immigration has a big an influence on British Citizens being made homeless as you claim, I'd argue austerity has played a much bigger part than immigration and of course other issues like drink/drugs and mental health. I'm pretty sure there'd be a study on this somewhere and if it found immigration to be the main cause then it would be all over both left and right leaning media.

As for housing affordability, immigration is one very small part of what again is a much bigger and complicated problem.

Saying the UK is at breaking is disingenuous as it is not a fact, it's feelings. An ageing population is a bigger problem facing the NHS than immigration and as I stated before austerity, underfunding and mismanagement. My parents have to regularly use the NHS due to various ailments and age, they are both very anti-immigration but they don't blame the NHS's woes on it.

I've seen the Australian immigration system being held up as an example of good immigration policy. Mainly due to the points system (again something that I believe is in some UK visa applications), the points system is just a part of some immigration applications and is not in place to restrict numbers.

As for roads and public transport, my memories of growing up in the UK in the 80s and 90s was that public transport was always awful. As for traffic/congestion, my family went from being a 1 car family in the late 90's to a 4 car family in the early 00's, there's your biggest impact.

I'm in no way implying this refers to you or anybody in this forum, but the whole backlash on immigration from the propaganda machines for the likes of Trump and Farage etc. reminds of the President Lyndon B. Johnson's quote, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best black man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

Despite this discussion arising from a Labour policy I'm aware we've probably gone off topic. So apologies.

 

[Rascal]

I'd be interested in your take on Spiked as you mention the editor.
Marxist beginnings, funded by Koch brothers, climate change deniers. Confuses the hell out of me.

It confuses me, but I like to see how others are thinking.

O'Neill is a contrarian and likes to comes across as an intellectual, mostly I find him incredibly boorish and dishonest. Occasionally though I do find myself in agreement with him, but it is occasionally.

 

[Rascal]

I agree about the shitload of money we’ve wasted on Brexit but I don’t believe in the socialist model... it hasn’t worked anywhere and therefore you’d have pick and choose which elements you apply.. that’s not an ideology, that’s a potential mess

The greatest government we have ever had was a Socialist government under Atlee. It created the NHS, it built a million new council homes, it reacted to the threat of the USSR and rebuilt the nation after WW2. Its policies were so good it created the social consensus that stayed in place until Thatcher was elected and destroyed the country with her crackpot advisor Keith Josephs take on Hayek and neo-liberalism.

Socialism has worked, in this country, to say it has not is just wrong.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

The greatest government we have ever had was a Socialist government under Atlee. It created the NHS, it built a million new council homes, it reacted to the threat of the USSR and rebuilt the nation after WW2. Its policies were so good it created the social consensus that stayed in place until Thatcher was elected and destroyed the country with her crackpot advisor Keith Josephs take on Hayek and neo-liberalism.

Socialism has worked, in this country, to say it has not is just wrong.

But what kind of 'socialsim' was it? I think that the 'socialism' of people like McDonnell would be at odds with the 'socialism' of Attlee!