The Labour Party

i think thats a separate point though mate. its not either or. i think we should leave the eu and the benefits system can change swell. government/higher ups have been taking money from the poor for years now and i can't see that changing. if what you were saying was true, why was it most lower income areas voted to leave ? there must be a reason why so many like that voted to leave.

i was sanctioned for 4 months on universal credit, for f all and completley agree that it needs changing.

Again you just prove my point. There are gonna be millions of people on the breadline that are going to vote Tory or the Brexit Party because they’ve been manipulated into believing it’s the single biggest thing to happen in their lives. But if Labour can deliver what they promise then they would overhaul the welfare system and make it much fairer for the poor, disabled and the vulnerable. So the options for those at the bottom are:

1- Vote Tory or BP and get Brexit but continue with the same attack on public funding and the welfare state.

2- Vote Labour get a second ref where leave would still go very close and have a complete overhaul of the benefits system that has crushed those at the bottom.
 
I understand that, by skilful manipulation an issue that didn't register in the top 10 of voters concerns before Cameron included the promise of one in his manifesto is now all pervasive.

As a Socialist Brexit is something I should support, and I do ; but the threat of Brexit under Johnson influenced by the ERG crackpots makes me fearful. That puts me in a classic no win scenario. Remain and we stay linked to the neo-liberal bullshit of the EU, leave and we get more of the neo-liberal bullshit under Johnson and his cronies. The only way we can have Socialism is by leaving and I think Corbyn has been rather clever in his attempts to pull the Overton window leftwards because that will make the more neo liberalism of Johnson the ERG crackpots harder to deliver. It may save the country from an epic outbreak of Disaster Capitalism. I can live with that, because the hope of a Socialist future will still be on the table.
At the moment they’re just making a much bigger Overton window that lets light in for both extremes
 
Again you just prove my point. There are gonna be millions of people on the breadline that are going to vote Tory or the Brexit Party because they’ve been manipulated into believing it’s the single biggest thing to happen in their lives. But if Labour can deliver what they promise then they would overhaul the welfare system and make it much fairer for the poor, disabled and the vulnerable. So the options for those at the bottom are:

1- Vote Tory or BP and get Brexit but continue with the same attack on public funding and the welfare state.

2- Vote Labour get a second ref where leave would still go very close and have a complete overhaul of the benefits system that has crushed those at the bottom.
Same old Labour bollocks.
 
5 million kids in poverty.
17 million people have less than hundred quid in savings.
Homelessness increasing all the time.
Austerity killing 130,000.

BuT NAugHTy LaBoUr HaVe The chEeK tO BriNg ThIS UP.
Hmmmm interesting. 17m have up to £100 we can steal off them. You've got us Tories thinking....
 
This 130,000 deaths by austerity was dug into on radio 4s More or Less feature on Friday afternoon.
Ripping into it , the BBC journalist pulled it apart , along with some other statistics expert.
Guess what ?
Turned out to be lies.
 
Just been listening on Marr to the voice of the Labour Party transmitted via the dulcet tones of pure Stockport.
Echoes of my youth, but when Angela Rayner complains of bellicose Tory language she should recall their Red Flag chorus:

Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Beneath its shade we’ll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We’ll keep the red flag flying here.
 
Last edited:
Two words stand out in that article.
Plausible hypothesis.
In other words .
It could be true or it could be bollocks.
You and I both know that people will twist words to suit their own ends.

The ONS have said death rates have risen by 5.4%
 
I understand that, by skilful manipulation an issue that didn't register in the top 10 of voters concerns before Cameron included the promise of one in his manifesto is now all pervasive.

As a Socialist Brexit is something I should support, and I do ; but the threat of Brexit under Johnson influenced by the ERG crackpots makes me fearful. That puts me in a classic no win scenario. Remain and we stay linked to the neo-liberal bullshit of the EU, leave and we get more of the neo-liberal bullshit under Johnson and his cronies. The only way we can have Socialism is by leaving and I think Corbyn has been rather clever in his attempts to pull the Overton window leftwards because that will make the more neo liberalism of Johnson the ERG crackpots harder to deliver. It may save the country from an epic outbreak of Disaster Capitalism. I can live with that, because the hope of a Socialist future will still be on the table.
Spain has a socialist government and are part of the EU
 
Spain has a socialist government and are part of the EU

Nominally yes, but still has to adhere to EU rules which favour the owners of Capital not the workers. In the EU these are the norm, freedom of movement for employers, freedom of movement for workers and state aid. State Aid is the bit Corbyn seems to care the most about. Basically, the EU is considered an impediment to socialist government.
It also depends what you mean by socialism. If you mean Bolshevik Communism, then it absolutely is. If you mean Scandinavian-style social democracy, it is not. Corbynite Socialism is somewhere in between the two.

The EU is not an obstacle to national ownership of anything. Part seven, article 345, of the general and final provisions of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union make that clear and it says "The treaties shall in no way prejudice the rules in member states governing the system of property ownership." The EU can't stop you taking the railways, say, or water, into public ownership. Nor can it stop a government becoming the majority shareholder in a car firm, BUT It can prevent the emergence of a monopoly, whether it is private or public. It ensures competition in provision. Public providers must be treated on an equal footing to private ones and any state subsidy must be available to all operators, whether private or public. There is an inherent contradiction there. Remember that a lot of subsidies go to multinational corporations.

The EU requirements force governments make their state aid payments transparent and demonstrate what type of behaviour they're intended to incentivise. In the last Labour manifesto it would have been difficult to establish the National Investment Bank and Regional state owned power companies, because of competitive tendering rules. That is a limit on national power.

In effect it is anti- socialist as EU free market rules prohibit national governments from planning economic development through regulating the movement of capital, goods, services and labour, across and even within the country’s boundaries.

Planned economies are, in effect, outlawed by Article 3 (for a ‘highly competitive market economy’) of the Treaty on European Union and by TFEU Articles 119, 120 and 127 which repeatedly demand that all EU member states operate ‘an open market economy with free competition’.

The EU Stability and Growth Pact sets limits on public sector financial deficits (3 per cent of GDP) and accumulated national debt (60 per cent of GDP) and commits member state governments to achieve balanced or surplus budgets.

EU directives have enshrined Value Added Tax as the EU’s ‘tax of choice’. Such indirect taxation favours the rich because everyone pays the same rate, whereas taxes on income or wealth can be levied at differential rates according to people’s ability to pay. VAT must be imposed in all member states at a minimum of 15 per cent on most goods and services (in Britain it is currently 20 per cent), or at a minimum of 5 per cent on specified essential items not already zero-rated. Only outside the EU would a British government be free to reduce or abolish VAT, not least as part of strategy to combat poverty and inequality.

The EU is also seen as being Imperialist, it looks after the Western free market economies at the expense of others. that has been debated on here at length.

This is a summation of the LEXIT view of the EU and not my personal view and was collated with the help of various websites as I wanted to try and cover it as best I could because the view is pretty much dismissed on here and it is highly relevant to any debate in my opinion as it helps explain why there is a split in the Labour Party between the Corbynites and the Blairites.
 
Nominally yes, but still has to adhere to EU rules which favour the owners of Capital not the workers. In the EU these are the norm, freedom of movement for employers, freedom of movement for workers and state aid. State Aid is the bit Corbyn seems to care the most about. Basically, the EU is considered an impediment to socialist government.
It also depends what you mean by socialism. If you mean Bolshevik Communism, then it absolutely is. If you mean Scandinavian-style social democracy, it is not. Corbynite Socialism is somewhere in between the two.

The EU is not an obstacle to national ownership of anything. Part seven, article 345, of the general and final provisions of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union make that clear and it says "The treaties shall in no way prejudice the rules in member states governing the system of property ownership." The EU can't stop you taking the railways, say, or water, into public ownership. Nor can it stop a government becoming the majority shareholder in a car firm, BUT It can prevent the emergence of a monopoly, whether it is private or public. It ensures competition in provision. Public providers must be treated on an equal footing to private ones and any state subsidy must be available to all operators, whether private or public. There is an inherent contradiction there. Remember that a lot of subsidies go to multinational corporations.

The EU requirements force governments make their state aid payments transparent and demonstrate what type of behaviour they're intended to incentivise. In the last Labour manifesto it would have been difficult to establish the National Investment Bank and Regional state owned power companies, because of competitive tendering rules. That is a limit on national power.

In effect it is anti- socialist as EU free market rules prohibit national governments from planning economic development through regulating the movement of capital, goods, services and labour, across and even within the country’s boundaries.

Planned economies are, in effect, outlawed by Article 3 (for a ‘highly competitive market economy’) of the Treaty on European Union and by TFEU Articles 119, 120 and 127 which repeatedly demand that all EU member states operate ‘an open market economy with free competition’.

The EU Stability and Growth Pact sets limits on public sector financial deficits (3 per cent of GDP) and accumulated national debt (60 per cent of GDP) and commits member state governments to achieve balanced or surplus budgets.

EU directives have enshrined Value Added Tax as the EU’s ‘tax of choice’. Such indirect taxation favours the rich because everyone pays the same rate, whereas taxes on income or wealth can be levied at differential rates according to people’s ability to pay. VAT must be imposed in all member states at a minimum of 15 per cent on most goods and services (in Britain it is currently 20 per cent), or at a minimum of 5 per cent on specified essential items not already zero-rated. Only outside the EU would a British government be free to reduce or abolish VAT, not least as part of strategy to combat poverty and inequality.

The EU is also seen as being Imperialist, it looks after the Western free market economies at the expense of others. that has been debated on here at length.

This is a summation of the LEXIT view of the EU and not my personal view and was collated with the help of various websites as I wanted to try and cover it as best I could because the view is pretty much dismissed on here and it is highly relevant to any debate in my opinion as it helps explain why there is a split in the Labour Party between the Corbynites and the Blairites.

Excellent post as always. What I will say though is that not all Corbynistas are lexiteers. Most that I come across are EU sceptical rather than haters and as such a lot are remainers but with a desire to reform. And there are other factors, such as freedom of movement that socialists generally are in favour of.
 
Just been listening on Marr to the voice of the Labour Party transmitted via the dulcet tones of pure Stockport.
Echoes of my youth, but when Angela Rayner complains of bellicose Tory language she should recall their Red Flag chorus:

Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Beneath its shade we’ll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We’ll keep the red flag flying here.

Do you really believe the singing of a song wrote by an Irishman over 130 years has the moral equivalency of Johnsons "humbug" reply and constant lies.

Pretty desperate stuff Georgie.
 
Do you really believe the singing of a song wrote by an Irishman over 130 years has the moral equivalency of Johnsons "humbug" reply and constant lies. Pretty desperate stuff Georgie.
I love it when you level the charge of desperation - it projects your inner crimson turmoil ;) (Pop over to the Brexit thread for another chorus!)
 
Is this acceptable?

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall:
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all.

Boris and especially JRM still use this though

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top