I'd similarly like to see a break up of the main parties, and see a broader range of views/causes given a voice. However, I think that needs to be preceded by electoral reform, which is a whole other kettle of worms.
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The Labour Party
- Thread starter Ban-jani
- Start date
I'd similarly like to see a break up of the main parties, and see a broader range of views/causes given a voice. However, I think that needs to be preceded by electoral reform, which is a whole other kettle of worms.
Gareth Barry Conlon
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 5 Sep 2014
- Messages
- 14,739
Do not know where to start with this.
I'd similarly like to see a break up of the main parties, and see a broader range of views/causes given a voice. However, I think that needs to be preceded by electoral reform, which is a whole other kettle of worms.
I’d like to give a new 4/5 party system a chance with FPTP first of all and then see how that goes.
Metal Biker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 3 Jul 2009
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- 21,330
- Team supported
- Manchester City (and McLaren F1)
Thought you said you "never bothered reading my posts".Do not know where to start with this.
Be consistent will you.
Gareth Barry Conlon
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 5 Sep 2014
- Messages
- 14,739
Thought you said you "never bothered reading my posts".
Be consistent will you.
Your right - it was a waste of my time.
Rascal
El Presidente
One last try to see if anyone on here can answer this.
There is already a Conservative party, a party of the right, a party of the free market, a party of individualism.
Explain to me what a party of the left should look like, what policies you would like to see a party of the Left have in a manifesto.
Here are 20 primers, can any on here tell me what is wrong with the following and why it should be different, what alternative would better suit the nation.
1/ The NHS should be funded properly, nurses should be paid a proper wage.
Yes, but it should also be accountable for its own waste of funds
I hear this a lot, but from a personal point of view some of the wastage is actual caused by cost cutting, its false economy.
2/ The welfare state should be a treasured institution, that provides a proper safety net for those who come across hard times and it should support those unable to support themselves
Safety net, yes. But it should not be seen as an alternative to working. The concept of having a savings account and not reliant on Government/state support should be encouraged more
its not an alternative to work and rarely is it a choice. The oft quoted never worked in three generations was found to be a myth.
3/ Everybody who can work, should work
Only if they want to. If someone has the means to support themselves without Government help, it should be their choice if they work or not. People are not 'workers'.
obviously there may be some exceptions but it was meant more in relation to point 2 rather than those who are lucky enough not to have to work
4/ Everybody should pay there fair share of taxation
Indeed, everyone should pay their fair share, and at the exact same rate as everyone else. People should not be taxed more based on their circumstances or higher income. There should be an option for those who earn more CAN contribute more, but the Govt should not just take it.
I am assuming you mean a flat tax rate applicable across the board, I think taxation should be progressive, an example a person of wealth will be more likely to use the roads more often than a person who cant afford a car, should the person without a car subsidise the roads for those with wealth?
5/ Infrastructure, like the railways should be in public ownership, its a vital national asset and should be treated accordingly
Disagree. It's a service like taxis or buses. Some people do not use public transport as it is an option. If people wish to contribute towards a public service, fine, but it should be an option, not a national tax.
Its proven that good infrastructure is good for the economy, if the state provides the infrastructure it leaves more for business to invest to create jobs. A private person or private company is not going to v=create its own motorways to move its goods around as that is simply unfeasible.
6/ The armed forces should be properly funded and the services restored to former numbers, with British built ships, British built tanks etc
So long as the UK is hitting it's NATO obligations I have no issues. Armed Forces Personnel should indeed be paid a decent wage, and be given the best equipment for the tasks required.
We have found common ground
7/ The police force should be restored to the numbers pre 2008, law and order is the bedrock of a decent society
To some extent, but the Police (and by extent the Government) also posesses too much power. Personally the general public should be allowed to safeguard their own protection in those circumstances where the Police cannot be present.
You would have to give me examples as I don't quite get where you are coming from, unless you advocating Vigilantes
8/ Immigration should be controlled, asylum seekers should be welcome as per international agreements
Indeed.
2 out of 8 so far
9/ Children should receive the best education possible, it should be free and if they want to go on to further education then they should be encouraged to do so and it should be free. Education closes the inequality gap and provides the skills that an economy needs
True, but the education system needs to be changed. People have different skills and attributes and excel is some areas than others, but our society judges everyone to the same standard. "Don't judge a fish based on its inability to climb a tree"
I would welcome the reintroduction of the technical college system, where people not deemed academically bright can learn a valuable skill. My brother excelled at one of these as he was probably not as bright as me academically, but technically he is miles ahead of me.
10/ Nobody should ever be homeless in a rich modern country, Build a million new council houses, with rents at affordable rates and tenancy agreements available for life
Agreed but STOP building on greenbelts. There are plently of brownfield sites that could be redeveloped.
I would support that, plus it would bring life back to our ailing town and city centres
11/ Start a new National Investment Bank, that is available for SMEs so that they can provide jobs and help the economy prosper
So long as it is optional.
It would be optional, if business wanted to expand then a National Investment Bank could help at more favourable rates than a high street bank, due to to an NIB having the backing of the BoE
12/ Invest in green technology, its the future, we no longer rely on coal
So long as the 'green' technology is nuclear and the negative stigma around nuclear safety is publicly addressed, i'm absolutely all for it. Invest in greener vehicles as well.
I am not anti=nuclear energy and it has a place,
13/ Close tax loopholes that allow those with wealth to move wealth out of the country
If people wish to move their wealth out of the country they should be allowed to do so. A persons wealth is not the property of the state.
If the wealth is moved out to avoid taxation then I would argue it is the property of the state
14/ Electricity and Gas provision is vital for the nation to prosper, it should be owned by the people who need it and paid for it. The public.
Disagree. Instead things like solar power should be encouraged so that people are free to generate their own energy needs and that the government claims no taxes on it. Gas is a service and like all services people should be given the option which service they prefer. If you haven't figured out by now, i'm not in favour of the Government controlling everything.
You assume by nationalisation I mean government control, that is not the case, industry should be run by professionals in the field with worker representation so that consumer interests are put before profit and any profit that is made can be returned to the government who could then invest or offer lower tax rates
15/ No library should ever be shut, they are vital institutions that help educate the nation.
Print is dead. Information in books can be found online and/or can be transferred over to digital format. Its a nostalgia factor, nothing more. I'm not advocating shutting them, but i'm not going to lament if they do.
Libraries are much more than libraries nowadays, they are community hubs and offer lessons in IT, reading help, parent/toddler mornings etc, all vital for social cohesion.
16/ Trial by jury should be sacrosanct
Correct
3 out of 16
17/ Prisons should be a place that offers rehabilitation, but also punishes those who commit heinious crime. Prison officer numbers should be restored to former numbers
Yes they should. But more efforts should be made to reduce the need for prisons.
4 out of 17
18/ Local Government should have power to act on local issues, the grants should be restored so that local government cam meet the needs of local people
Yes they should, and be autonomous.
5 out of 18
19/ Broadband/wifi should be available to everyone and every child should be given a tablet/laptop on starting school to help educate them properly. Education will help close the productivity gap
Broadband should be available to everyone. But individuals must make provisions to pay for it themselves and not expect others to.
By making it few it will pay for itself in environmental terms , as well as encouraging more people to work from home, which means greater productivity as the roads are quieter and there are less delays in the supply chain. It may also help close the educational achievement gap. That alone would be worth every penny as a better skilled workforce leads to greater productivity gains.
20/ Unions should be restored to prominence, they are responsible for so many things we take for granted today and collective bargaining helps ensure wages are paid at a proper level.
When I see Union CEO's on £100,000 a year, I begin to question the integrity of the 'unions' and it's intentions. Instead i'd rather see employees given more rights that are worked into their contracts.
What a Union pays its staff is a matter for the Unions, just as what a business pays its managers is a matter for the business, unless of course you are questioning the integrity of big business salaries as well
OK, there is 20 things that this "hard" left "numpty" would like to see for our country, I believe those 20 things would help restore pride in our country, enhance the patriotic feelings towards our nation, because patriotism is about loving the country you live in. It would enhance the role of family and reduce inequality.
Now who will deconstruct those 20 points and explain to this "hard" left "numpty" where I am going wrong?
A lot of your points are focused around the authority of the Government/Parliament and for everything to be paid for with taxes. I am not in favour of 'Big Government' and abhore authoritarianism. There are many of us who feel more rights should be afforded to the individual and reliance on the state should be relaxed. Many people are willing to help others, but are also interested in their own independence. They don't want too much Government control, Government interference. Not everything has to be controlled by the Government, not everything must be paid for through taxes. Essential services to health and security, yes. Everything else is through matter of personal choice and circumstance.
Where are you going wrong? You admitted you're not 'liberal' and an authoritarian. Most people in the UK do not share those same political views.
I am a believer that the state has a moral duty to its citizens, it binds the nation together and is the first line of defence against incursion from outside interests. Libertarianism is all well and good until it comes to the matters where the collective is more powerful than the individual and as humans are natural tribalists and work better as a collective in my opinion the state is where that collective will can be better focused.
Thanks for your replies though pal, its been enlightening to have a conservation about different viewpoints without the animosity that srrounds much of todays political debate,
Cheers
El Presidente
There is already a Conservative party, a party of the right, a party of the free market, a party of individualism.
Explain to me what a party of the left should look like, what policies you would like to see a party of the Left have in a manifesto.
Here are 20 primers, can any on here tell me what is wrong with the following and why it should be different, what alternative would better suit the nation.
1/ The NHS should be funded properly, nurses should be paid a proper wage.
Yes, but it should also be accountable for its own waste of funds
I hear this a lot, but from a personal point of view some of the wastage is actual caused by cost cutting, its false economy.
2/ The welfare state should be a treasured institution, that provides a proper safety net for those who come across hard times and it should support those unable to support themselves
Safety net, yes. But it should not be seen as an alternative to working. The concept of having a savings account and not reliant on Government/state support should be encouraged more
its not an alternative to work and rarely is it a choice. The oft quoted never worked in three generations was found to be a myth.
3/ Everybody who can work, should work
Only if they want to. If someone has the means to support themselves without Government help, it should be their choice if they work or not. People are not 'workers'.
obviously there may be some exceptions but it was meant more in relation to point 2 rather than those who are lucky enough not to have to work
4/ Everybody should pay there fair share of taxation
Indeed, everyone should pay their fair share, and at the exact same rate as everyone else. People should not be taxed more based on their circumstances or higher income. There should be an option for those who earn more CAN contribute more, but the Govt should not just take it.
I am assuming you mean a flat tax rate applicable across the board, I think taxation should be progressive, an example a person of wealth will be more likely to use the roads more often than a person who cant afford a car, should the person without a car subsidise the roads for those with wealth?
5/ Infrastructure, like the railways should be in public ownership, its a vital national asset and should be treated accordingly
Disagree. It's a service like taxis or buses. Some people do not use public transport as it is an option. If people wish to contribute towards a public service, fine, but it should be an option, not a national tax.
Its proven that good infrastructure is good for the economy, if the state provides the infrastructure it leaves more for business to invest to create jobs. A private person or private company is not going to v=create its own motorways to move its goods around as that is simply unfeasible.
6/ The armed forces should be properly funded and the services restored to former numbers, with British built ships, British built tanks etc
So long as the UK is hitting it's NATO obligations I have no issues. Armed Forces Personnel should indeed be paid a decent wage, and be given the best equipment for the tasks required.
We have found common ground
7/ The police force should be restored to the numbers pre 2008, law and order is the bedrock of a decent society
To some extent, but the Police (and by extent the Government) also posesses too much power. Personally the general public should be allowed to safeguard their own protection in those circumstances where the Police cannot be present.
You would have to give me examples as I don't quite get where you are coming from, unless you advocating Vigilantes
8/ Immigration should be controlled, asylum seekers should be welcome as per international agreements
Indeed.
2 out of 8 so far
9/ Children should receive the best education possible, it should be free and if they want to go on to further education then they should be encouraged to do so and it should be free. Education closes the inequality gap and provides the skills that an economy needs
True, but the education system needs to be changed. People have different skills and attributes and excel is some areas than others, but our society judges everyone to the same standard. "Don't judge a fish based on its inability to climb a tree"
I would welcome the reintroduction of the technical college system, where people not deemed academically bright can learn a valuable skill. My brother excelled at one of these as he was probably not as bright as me academically, but technically he is miles ahead of me.
10/ Nobody should ever be homeless in a rich modern country, Build a million new council houses, with rents at affordable rates and tenancy agreements available for life
Agreed but STOP building on greenbelts. There are plently of brownfield sites that could be redeveloped.
I would support that, plus it would bring life back to our ailing town and city centres
11/ Start a new National Investment Bank, that is available for SMEs so that they can provide jobs and help the economy prosper
So long as it is optional.
It would be optional, if business wanted to expand then a National Investment Bank could help at more favourable rates than a high street bank, due to to an NIB having the backing of the BoE
12/ Invest in green technology, its the future, we no longer rely on coal
So long as the 'green' technology is nuclear and the negative stigma around nuclear safety is publicly addressed, i'm absolutely all for it. Invest in greener vehicles as well.
I am not anti=nuclear energy and it has a place,
13/ Close tax loopholes that allow those with wealth to move wealth out of the country
If people wish to move their wealth out of the country they should be allowed to do so. A persons wealth is not the property of the state.
If the wealth is moved out to avoid taxation then I would argue it is the property of the state
14/ Electricity and Gas provision is vital for the nation to prosper, it should be owned by the people who need it and paid for it. The public.
Disagree. Instead things like solar power should be encouraged so that people are free to generate their own energy needs and that the government claims no taxes on it. Gas is a service and like all services people should be given the option which service they prefer. If you haven't figured out by now, i'm not in favour of the Government controlling everything.
You assume by nationalisation I mean government control, that is not the case, industry should be run by professionals in the field with worker representation so that consumer interests are put before profit and any profit that is made can be returned to the government who could then invest or offer lower tax rates
15/ No library should ever be shut, they are vital institutions that help educate the nation.
Print is dead. Information in books can be found online and/or can be transferred over to digital format. Its a nostalgia factor, nothing more. I'm not advocating shutting them, but i'm not going to lament if they do.
Libraries are much more than libraries nowadays, they are community hubs and offer lessons in IT, reading help, parent/toddler mornings etc, all vital for social cohesion.
16/ Trial by jury should be sacrosanct
Correct
3 out of 16
17/ Prisons should be a place that offers rehabilitation, but also punishes those who commit heinious crime. Prison officer numbers should be restored to former numbers
Yes they should. But more efforts should be made to reduce the need for prisons.
4 out of 17
18/ Local Government should have power to act on local issues, the grants should be restored so that local government cam meet the needs of local people
Yes they should, and be autonomous.
5 out of 18
19/ Broadband/wifi should be available to everyone and every child should be given a tablet/laptop on starting school to help educate them properly. Education will help close the productivity gap
Broadband should be available to everyone. But individuals must make provisions to pay for it themselves and not expect others to.
By making it few it will pay for itself in environmental terms , as well as encouraging more people to work from home, which means greater productivity as the roads are quieter and there are less delays in the supply chain. It may also help close the educational achievement gap. That alone would be worth every penny as a better skilled workforce leads to greater productivity gains.
20/ Unions should be restored to prominence, they are responsible for so many things we take for granted today and collective bargaining helps ensure wages are paid at a proper level.
When I see Union CEO's on £100,000 a year, I begin to question the integrity of the 'unions' and it's intentions. Instead i'd rather see employees given more rights that are worked into their contracts.
What a Union pays its staff is a matter for the Unions, just as what a business pays its managers is a matter for the business, unless of course you are questioning the integrity of big business salaries as well
OK, there is 20 things that this "hard" left "numpty" would like to see for our country, I believe those 20 things would help restore pride in our country, enhance the patriotic feelings towards our nation, because patriotism is about loving the country you live in. It would enhance the role of family and reduce inequality.
Now who will deconstruct those 20 points and explain to this "hard" left "numpty" where I am going wrong?
A lot of your points are focused around the authority of the Government/Parliament and for everything to be paid for with taxes. I am not in favour of 'Big Government' and abhore authoritarianism. There are many of us who feel more rights should be afforded to the individual and reliance on the state should be relaxed. Many people are willing to help others, but are also interested in their own independence. They don't want too much Government control, Government interference. Not everything has to be controlled by the Government, not everything must be paid for through taxes. Essential services to health and security, yes. Everything else is through matter of personal choice and circumstance.
Where are you going wrong? You admitted you're not 'liberal' and an authoritarian. Most people in the UK do not share those same political views.
I am a believer that the state has a moral duty to its citizens, it binds the nation together and is the first line of defence against incursion from outside interests. Libertarianism is all well and good until it comes to the matters where the collective is more powerful than the individual and as humans are natural tribalists and work better as a collective in my opinion the state is where that collective will can be better focused.
Thanks for your replies though pal, its been enlightening to have a conservation about different viewpoints without the animosity that srrounds much of todays political debate,
Cheers
El Presidente
hilts
Well-Known Member
I’d like to give a new 4/5 party system a chance with FPTP first of all and then see how that goes.
You have just doomed all but 2 parties(probably 1 at the moment) with that view.
meltonblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 14 May 2013
- Messages
- 7,029
I’d like to give a new 4/5 party system a chance with FPTP first of all and then see how that goes.
No point in doing that at all though, it has to be coupled with proportional representation for it to to add any potential value. I’d absolutely love to see that. There’d be a shitload of short term pain, but would make for a far more mature government, debate and political system of democracy in general for the future.
You have just doomed all but 2 parties(probably 1 at the moment) with that view.
I understand your point, some certainly wouldn’t last but we’d maybe end up with some 3 party coalition mess with 4 new parties and PR.
What would be good is if Labour stick to socialist principles, the Tories stop being fucking liberals and actually behave like conservatives and the Liberal Democrats stop being so useless and gain some traction, so we can have a legitimate left, right and centre vote.
The trouble is all three manoeuvre themselves in different directions to get more votes, rather than keeping principles.
No point in doing that at all though, it has to be coupled with proportional representation for it to to add any potential value. I’d absolutely love to see that. There’d be a shitload of short term pain, but would make for a far more mature government, debate and political system of democracy in general for the future.
As per my response to Hilts is that with PR may make some horrid coalition that’d never get anything done.