The Maginot Line

[dickie davies]

I visited the Maginot line back in the late 80's and the bit we visited, which was in the south east of france, had seen action
There were sighns saying this ditch was made by a bomb dropped from a Stuka and also the metal fortifications had huge chunks taken out of them by german artillery and heavy machine gun

 

[dickie davies]

War is a damned, chancy thing, which is why you are better off avoiding it.

The UK had an extremely mechanised army in 1939 (contrary to popular opinion) whereas the Germans still relied heavily on horses (contrary to popular opinion.) However, the British tanks were hopeless and our generals were out-thought in tactical terms.

According to my Dad, our tanks were still pretty poor in 1944 and we had to deploy self-propelled guns to counter the German tanks. Later some Shermans were equipped with British guns and they were about the best kit we had. Luckily we (and the Yanks) had an endless supply of tanks, while the best German ones were in short supply.

It's easy to laugh at military mistakes, but history is full of them.

The issue the Germans had later in the war is similar to German engineering today
They built the latest technology and nothing was "interchangeable"
So any tanks were absolutely top of the range and when they required repair or servicing, the front line didn't have any parts or training to undertake it
Where as the Russians mass produced the exact same T34 for five years, so if two were damaged, one would be used as a donor to get the second back up and running
The Americans pretty much did the same with the Sherman. The dark joke told by the Germans was, one German tank could take out ten Shermans. Problem was, there is always an eleventh

 

[Saddleworth2]

The Schlieffen plan was pretty much a carbon copy of WW1 when the Germans came via Belgium . I visited Ypres a few years ago the scene of the worse of trench warfare ending in the carnage of Passchendale.My grandad got gassed there. It was great to see so many British school parties visiting the Menin Gate.

I found it uplifting that the people of Ypres still hold a daily service at the Menin Gate in remembrance. It was very well attended when we were there a few years ago.

 

[Tuearts right boot]

Wouldn't mattered anyway, the Germans had at the very least a 10 yr head start on everybody.

 

[Lovebitesandeveryfing]

The French made the common mistake of fighting the next war based on the last war.

They expected static lines and simply had not considered blitzkrieg - they weren’t alone as I don’t think anyone did.

The Poles apparently went into battle against Panzers and Tigers with cavalry! That didn't last long.

 

[JASR]

The Schlieffen plan was pretty much a carbon copy of WW1 when the Germans came via Belgium . I visited Ypres a few years ago the scene of the worse of trench warfare ending in the carnage of Passchendale.My grandad got gassed there. It was great to see so many British school parties visiting the Menin Gate.

It’s as though they couldn’t quite comprehend they’d be threatened in the same way… despite thinking that the maginot line would be the piece de resistance of trench warfare.

so they built something for a type of war that didn’t exist anymore , to stop the Germans re-invading again, but didn’t build it where they invaded…

 

[JASR]

The issue the Germans had later in the war is similar to German engineering today
They built the latest technology and nothing was "interchangeable"
So any tanks were absolutely top of the range and when they required repair or servicing, the front line didn't have any parts or training to undertake it
Where as the Russians mass produced the exact same T34 for five years, so if two were damaged, one would be used as a donor to get the second back up and running
The Americans pretty much did the same with the Sherman. The dark joke told by the Germans was, one German tank could take out ten Shermans. Problem was, there is always an eleventh

German tanks were also much more complex, to build and to service.
So it took more materials and time to produce a smaller amount of tanks.. an amount that was already considerably behind the Russians ability (in 1942 onwards). Let alone the US.

the Germans really messed up with how they moved their tanks, planes and submarines forward in design and introduction.

Didn’t help that hitler kept sticking his oar in. The he-177 heavy bomber being a case in point - hitler wanted it to be dive-bomber capable…

 

[metalblue]

Wouldn't mattered anyway, the Germans had at the very least a 10 yr head start on everybody.

Agreed that German forces had largely modern equipment but Britain and France had modern (and modernising) airforces, plenty of man power and modern weaponry - all in all, no doubt they could give a very good account of themselves.

But there was a huge reluctance for another war; the French couldn’t afford it and the British didn’t want it; not just for another war on its doorstep but with Japan in the Far East staking claims they didn’t want to take their eye off the wider consequences.

Once the shooting war started the Germans had the experience and the tactics.

 

[BrianW]

It is worth remembering Britain still had a worldwide empire in 1939 and was up against an actual or potential triple alliance of Germany, Italy and Japan, strategically just about the most inconvenient combination possible. We had just gone through a major economic crisis and a period during which (for various reasons) we had spent little on military equipment. We began to re-arm just in time, but we were still massively over-stretched.

For example, we were expected to defend Australia, but given we were involved with Germany and Italy there was no way we could send sufficient ships, planes or soldiers. That is how Australia (feeling betrayed) fell under the US orbit.

So I can quite understand the 1930s UK government wanting to avoid war. We were in no state to fight one and it is a miracle we survived. Maybe Adolf could have been squashed in 1934 or 1935 but no one wanted to take the chance.

 

[Ghandi's Flip Flops]

War is a damned, chancy thing, which is why you are better off avoiding it.

The UK had an extremely mechanised army in 1939 (contrary to popular opinion) whereas the Germans still relied heavily on horses (contrary to popular opinion.) However, the British tanks were hopeless and our generals were out-thought in tactical terms.

According to my Dad, our tanks were still pretty poor in 1944 and we had to deploy self-propelled guns to counter the German tanks. Later some Shermans were equipped with British guns and they were about the best kit we had. Luckily we (and the Yanks) had an endless supply of tanks, while the best German ones were in short supply.

It's easy to laugh at military mistakes, but history is full of them.

The British and French tanks weren't hopeless. They were pretty much on par with the German Panzer 2,3 & 4's used in the invasion, and the Allies also had a slight numerical advantage.
The issue was how they were used. The germans attacked with them en masse, whereas the British and French spread them around all the various units, resulting in the Germans always having a local numerical advantage in tank to tank engagements(i.e 3 or 4 to 1).
Plus the Germans could also being able to call on Air and Artillery support quicker as needed.

On the rare occasion when the Brits managed to mass their tanks together they could cause absolute carnage. In one instant they grouped about 12 Matilda 1 & 2's together (Matilda 1's didn't even a gun, just a big machine gun) and sent them down 2 roads to attack, which caused nearly a full German infantry division to fall back in total dis-array. Part of the reason for this was the Matilda's were very heavily armoured and the standard German anti-tank guns ammo would just bounce off. Also the Matilda's had stowage bins (for the crew's kit etc) on the outside which would often set on fire when hit. So there's a few german reports from the time saying they'd hit these Matilda's with everything they had, set them on fire etc and they just kept going to their amazement.

The Shermans equipped with British Guns later on in the war were known as Sherman 'Fireflies'. Basically a Sherman equipped with a British 17 pounder artillery gun instead of the standard 75mm gun.