The Prime Ministers Speech today

[Rascal]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

To believe that Labour would have won the '83 election if it wasn't for the Falkands War is hopelessly simplistic and wholly wrong.

Correct. Psephologists sneer at that claim, the Falklands was over a year before the election for one thing. Gerald Kaufman got it right when he described the 1983 Labour manifesto as "the longest suicide note in history". They were unelectable.

Correct and thank god.

Gerald Kaufmann is a bumbling buffoon to be fair

So the 83 election was the turning point and as a result we got the unfettered rise of neo liberalism that manifests itself in todays huge inequalities.

Back in 83 Labour advocated

1/ leaving the EU............ And nobody wants that today

2/ Nationalising North Sea Oil............Norway did and they have 2nd GDP in the world

3/ Closer credit controls on banks..........2008 crash could never have happened

4/ Starting a National Investment Bank.......Pretty much mainstream thought today

5/ Scrapping nuclear deterent. ....... We wouldnt be sweating about replacing trident

6/ Introducing a National Minimum wage ..........We have one now

7/ Banning fox hunting................Now banned

8/ Abolotion of House of Lords..........Reform of it is needed still

9/ Renationalisation of industries sold off and cessation of any further nationalisation plans........Think many would welcome Rail, Electric, Gas. Water etc back in public control

10/ Raise taxes on bankers..... The richest should pay there share.

11/ Invest in renewable energy.........Pretty much mainstream now

12/ Provide nursery care for under 5s.........pretty much mainstream now


Now consider that 1983 election was to the backdrop of 3.5 million unemployed but with North Sea Oil revenue booming. Labour included there emergency plan of action.



“Launch a massive programme for expansion. We will:
• Provide a major increase in public investment, including transport, housing and energy conservation.
• Begin a huge programme of construction, so that we can start to build our way out of the slump.
• Halt the destruction of our social services and begin to rebuild them, by providing a substantial increase in resources.
• Increase investment in industry, especially in new technology - with public enterprise taking the lead. And we will steer new industry and jobs to the regions and the inner cities.
• Ensure that the pound is competitive; and hold back prices through action on VAT, rents, rates and fares.
• Introduce a crash programme of employment and training, with new job subsidies and allowances


Much of this is being called for from all parties today.



So forget what the fool Kaufmann said and look at what in reality was a very innovative manifesto much of which is now either mainstream thought and some which would without doubt have made todays austerity and problems impossible to occur.

 

[Henkeman]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

The reason she did not do so was to take full advantage of the "Falklands Factor".

Labour may not have worn that election anyway but the Falklands proved to be a significant advantage to the Tories.

The Falklands finished in June 1982, the election wasn't until June 1983, a full year later. The idea that the "Falklands Factor" lasted a full year is in defiance of common sense and all political precedent. Bear in mind that Labour were enthusiastically behind the campaign to reclaim the Falklands in Parliament too, and it's pure revisionism to try and claim it had much of a bearing. The reason she went for June '83 was because the economy had picked up from its nadir in 1981. "It's the economy, stupid" was as true then as it is now.

If it was about the economy alone the Tories would have deferred the election for a year.

During the election of 1983 the term "Falklands Factor" was contemporary currency.

Not really. Going after four years was pretty normal. Only governments in trouble would leave it longer, such as 1992, 1997, 2009. No government would like to leave it to the fifth year if they could avoid it, it meant they couldn't control the timing. And yes of course it would be mentioned in the election campaign a lot, that's no surprise. The Tories were still talking about the Winter of Discontent in 1997 and Labour still talking about the Major years in 2009.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

To believe that a Labour party under Michael Foot would have won the '83 election if it wasn't for the Falkands War is hopelessly simplistic and wholly wrong.

I never said he would have won it, only that at the time of the invasion Thatcher was the most unpopular leader in polling history and that put Labour in a good position to exploit that. With the economy only just showing an improvement in the South, the Tories may not have had enough time to gain support to get a majority. Maybe the phrase 'on course' was the wrong one to use, but it could be argued that the Labour leadership would have felt pleased with the status given the polls. Either way, the war changed everything, Labour had to side with Thatcher to some degree while the conflict continued. Afterwards they did not have the momentum that the Tories had and Foot's image was a major issue against Thatcher's.

In any case, no-one knows what would have happened and as there are conflicting opinions out there, it is ridiculous to accuse anyone that they are wholly wrong or having hopelessly simplistic opinions.

'On course' was your unilateral choice of words and what I commented upon. On that basis there was nothing ridiculous in what I said. 'On course' seems to suggest discernibly more than your subsequent post......errrrr........suggests.

Fair comment and I understand how you've interpreted my choice of words.

However I would say that a new opposition leader, 15 months out from a general election facing the most unpopular prime minister in polling history, would feel confident of putting up a good challenge at least. Strange how it eventually became a huge defeat (biggest since 1945) in such a short time frame. Would the Tories have managed this without the conflict? Maybe, but as the recession was still in hold across most of the country I would have said not. I seem to recall pundits stating the women's vote making a big difference at the time, were they had failed to identify with Foot and been impressed by Thatcher's strong image.

 

[Henkeman]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

Correct. Psephologists sneer at that claim, the Falklands was over a year before the election for one thing. Gerald Kaufman got it right when he described the 1983 Labour manifesto as "the longest suicide note in history". They were unelectable.

Correct and thank god.

Gerald Kaufmann is a bumbling buffoon to be fair

So the 83 election was the turning point and as a result we got the unfettered rise of neo liberalism that manifests itself in todays huge inequalities.

Back in 83 Labour advocated

1/ leaving the EU............ And nobody wants that today

2/ Nationalising North Sea Oil............Norway did and they have 2nd GDP in the world

3/ Closer credit controls on banks..........2008 crash could never have happened

4/ Starting a National Investment Bank.......Pretty much mainstream thought today

5/ Scrapping nuclear deterent. ....... We wouldnt be sweating about replacing trident

6/ Introducing a National Minimum wage ..........We have one now

7/ Banning fox hunting................Now banned

8/ Abolotion of House of Lords..........Reform of it is needed still

9/ Renationalisation of industries sold off and cessation of any further nationalisation plans........Think many would welcome Rail, Electric, Gas. Water etc back in public control

10/ Raise taxes on bankers..... The richest should pay there share.

11/ Invest in renewable energy.........Pretty much mainstream now

12/ Provide nursery care for under 5s.........pretty much mainstream now


Now consider that 1983 election was to the backdrop of 3.5 million unemployed but with North Sea Oil revenue booming. Labour included there emergency plan of action.



“Launch a massive programme for expansion. We will:
• Provide a major increase in public investment, including transport, housing and energy conservation.
• Begin a huge programme of construction, so that we can start to build our way out of the slump.
• Halt the destruction of our social services and begin to rebuild them, by providing a substantial increase in resources.
• Increase investment in industry, especially in new technology - with public enterprise taking the lead. And we will steer new industry and jobs to the regions and the inner cities.
• Ensure that the pound is competitive; and hold back prices through action on VAT, rents, rates and fares.
• Introduce a crash programme of employment and training, with new job subsidies and allowances


Much of this is being called for from all parties today.



So forget what the fool Kaufmann said and look at what in reality was a very innovative manifesto much of which is now either mainstream thought and some which would without doubt have made todays austerity and problems impossible to occur.

Whether you like it or not, the public hated it. You can try and make a case for whatever you want to from that, but it is entirely irrelevant.

 

[Rascal]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

Correct and thank god.

Gerald Kaufmann is a bumbling buffoon to be fair

So the 83 election was the turning point and as a result we got the unfettered rise of neo liberalism that manifests itself in todays huge inequalities.

Back in 83 Labour advocated

1/ leaving the EU............ And nobody wants that today

2/ Nationalising North Sea Oil............Norway did and they have 2nd GDP in the world

3/ Closer credit controls on banks..........2008 crash could never have happened

4/ Starting a National Investment Bank.......Pretty much mainstream thought today

5/ Scrapping nuclear deterent. ....... We wouldnt be sweating about replacing trident

6/ Introducing a National Minimum wage ..........We have one now

7/ Banning fox hunting................Now banned

8/ Abolotion of House of Lords..........Reform of it is needed still

9/ Renationalisation of industries sold off and cessation of any further nationalisation plans........Think many would welcome Rail, Electric, Gas. Water etc back in public control

10/ Raise taxes on bankers..... The richest should pay there share.

11/ Invest in renewable energy.........Pretty much mainstream now

12/ Provide nursery care for under 5s.........pretty much mainstream now


Now consider that 1983 election was to the backdrop of 3.5 million unemployed but with North Sea Oil revenue booming. Labour included there emergency plan of action.



“Launch a massive programme for expansion. We will:
• Provide a major increase in public investment, including transport, housing and energy conservation.
• Begin a huge programme of construction, so that we can start to build our way out of the slump.
• Halt the destruction of our social services and begin to rebuild them, by providing a substantial increase in resources.
• Increase investment in industry, especially in new technology - with public enterprise taking the lead. And we will steer new industry and jobs to the regions and the inner cities.
• Ensure that the pound is competitive; and hold back prices through action on VAT, rents, rates and fares.
• Introduce a crash programme of employment and training, with new job subsidies and allowances


Much of this is being called for from all parties today.



So forget what the fool Kaufmann said and look at what in reality was a very innovative manifesto much of which is now either mainstream thought and some which would without doubt have made todays austerity and problems impossible to occur.

Whether you like it or not, the public hated it. You can try and make a case for whatever you want to from that, but it is entirely irrelevant.

History is rarely irrelevant.

As my posts shows it appears politicians from all parties took chunks of that manifesto and used it for there owns ends. Thats a fact whether you like it or not.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

I never said he would have won it, only that at the time of the invasion Thatcher was the most unpopular leader in polling history and that put Labour in a good position to exploit that. With the economy only just showing an improvement in the South, the Tories may not have had enough time to gain support to get a majority. Maybe the phrase 'on course' was the wrong one to use, but it could be argued that the Labour leadership would have felt pleased with the status given the polls. Either way, the war changed everything, Labour had to side with Thatcher to some degree while the conflict continued. Afterwards they did not have the momentum that the Tories had and Foot's image was a major issue against Thatcher's.

In any case, no-one knows what would have happened and as there are conflicting opinions out there, it is ridiculous to accuse anyone that they are wholly wrong or having hopelessly simplistic opinions.

'On course' was your unilateral choice of words and what I commented upon. On that basis there was nothing ridiculous in what I said. 'On course' seems to suggest discernibly more than your subsequent post......errrrr........suggests.

Fair comment and I understand how you've interpreted my choice of words.

However I would say that a new opposition leader, 15 months out from a general election facing the most unpopular prime minister in polling history, would feel confident of putting up a good challenge at least. Strange how it eventually became a huge defeat (biggest since 1945) in such a short time frame. Would the Tories have managed this without the conflict? Maybe, but as the recession was still in hold across most of the country I would have said not. I seem to recall pundits stating the women's vote making a big difference at the time, were they had failed to identify with Foot and been impressed by Thatcher's strong image.

No, I absolutely don't think the majority would have been anything like as large if it weren't for the Falklands, but that doesn't alter my point.

No worries about the choice of words. We all use imprecise language from time to time. Even me ;-)

 

[Henkeman]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

Gerald Kaufmann is a bumbling buffoon to be fair

So the 83 election was the turning point and as a result we got the unfettered rise of neo liberalism that manifests itself in todays huge inequalities.

Back in 83 Labour advocated

1/ leaving the EU............ And nobody wants that today

2/ Nationalising North Sea Oil............Norway did and they have 2nd GDP in the world

3/ Closer credit controls on banks..........2008 crash could never have happened

4/ Starting a National Investment Bank.......Pretty much mainstream thought today

5/ Scrapping nuclear deterent. ....... We wouldnt be sweating about replacing trident

6/ Introducing a National Minimum wage ..........We have one now

7/ Banning fox hunting................Now banned

8/ Abolotion of House of Lords..........Reform of it is needed still

9/ Renationalisation of industries sold off and cessation of any further nationalisation plans........Think many would welcome Rail, Electric, Gas. Water etc back in public control

10/ Raise taxes on bankers..... The richest should pay there share.

11/ Invest in renewable energy.........Pretty much mainstream now

12/ Provide nursery care for under 5s.........pretty much mainstream now


Now consider that 1983 election was to the backdrop of 3.5 million unemployed but with North Sea Oil revenue booming. Labour included there emergency plan of action.



“Launch a massive programme for expansion. We will:
• Provide a major increase in public investment, including transport, housing and energy conservation.
• Begin a huge programme of construction, so that we can start to build our way out of the slump.
• Halt the destruction of our social services and begin to rebuild them, by providing a substantial increase in resources.
• Increase investment in industry, especially in new technology - with public enterprise taking the lead. And we will steer new industry and jobs to the regions and the inner cities.
• Ensure that the pound is competitive; and hold back prices through action on VAT, rents, rates and fares.
• Introduce a crash programme of employment and training, with new job subsidies and allowances


Much of this is being called for from all parties today.



So forget what the fool Kaufmann said and look at what in reality was a very innovative manifesto much of which is now either mainstream thought and some which would without doubt have made todays austerity and problems impossible to occur.

Whether you like it or not, the public hated it. You can try and make a case for whatever you want to from that, but it is entirely irrelevant.

History is rarely irrelevant.

As my posts shows it appears politicians from all parties took chunks of that manifesto and used it for there owns ends. Thats a fact whether you like it or not.

So what? The public hated it. That's all that is relevant.

 

[Rascal]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

'On course' was your unilateral choice of words and what I commented upon. On that basis there was nothing ridiculous in what I said. 'On course' seems to suggest discernibly more than your subsequent post......errrrr........suggests.

Fair comment and I understand how you've interpreted my choice of words.

However I would say that a new opposition leader, 15 months out from a general election facing the most unpopular prime minister in polling history, would feel confident of putting up a good challenge at least. Strange how it eventually became a huge defeat (biggest since 1945) in such a short time frame. Would the Tories have managed this without the conflict? Maybe, but as the recession was still in hold across most of the country I would have said not. I seem to recall pundits stating the women's vote making a big difference at the time, were they had failed to identify with Foot and been impressed by Thatcher's strong image.

No, I absolutely don't think the majority would have been anything like as large if it weren't for the Falklands, but that doesn't alter my point.

No worries about the choice of words. We all use imprecise language from time to time. Even me ;-)

In 1983 the Tory share of the vote actually fell compared to 1979 but they gained 58 seats.

Due completly to the Labour party split and rise of the SDP and there pact with the Liberals splitting the left wing vote.

Thatcher got 13m votes, Labour and SDP/Libs combined got over 16M votes Thatcher won 397 seats... Labour....with SDP/libs won 232 combined.

As a result we got the unfettered neo liberalism that has failed us as a country, increased inequality and made the UK a damn sight more of a miserable place to live than if the fucking gang of four hadnt been such traitors.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

if the fucking gang of four hadnt been such traitors.

Haha! You lefties love a scapegoat !

 

[Rascal]

Re: The Prime Ministers Speach today

if the fucking gang of four hadnt been such traitors.

Haha! You lefties love a scapegoat !

Us lefties believe in "solidarity" and the cause. Anyone betraying that solidarity is a traitor.

So its right to blame the Gang of Four for the full horror Thatcher unleashed. They became what Lenin would said "useful idiots"