The Rise of the Far Right

And as I’ve said, there could be a black person who’s seen less racism than I have and I may be better at spotting it? Have you thought about that?

There’s a girl at work who’s parents are from Pakistan, she’s not interested in politics and didn’t even know who Tommy Robinson was during a discussion. Now I could tell you more about the views and crimes of Robinson than she ever could but in your world my opinion doesn’t count and hers does.

The argument on Fox was that the random mixed race woman in the audience said his opinion didn’t count and hers did - despite neither of them being the victim in that particular case. What if Fox knew more about the stories written and knew the journalists personally?

I’m not arguing that asking those who live life as a minority what it’s like to understand it better, I’m arguing that they may not necessarily know more than me about a particular incident or range of incidents and therefore my opinion should be taken just as seriously.

I’ll be honest it didn’t occur to me to make up a hypothetical black person less adept at spotting racism in his/her presence than yourself.

And you are still conflating ‘seeing’ racism with ‘experiencing’ racism and as for Fox possibly ‘knowing more about the stories and knew the journalists personally’ well yes it’s possible but then the mixed race woman has probably experienced more racism than Fox so well...what exactly? I should put greater value Fox’s opinion on the off chance he might know one of the journos?

And if this is just about taking your opinion, and presumably Fox’s, just as seriously as those who actually experience racism or prejudice then we have to disagree. I don’t elevate my own opinion to the same level as those with direct experience of these issues, and given how fond I am of my own opinion, I am hardly likely to elevate someone else’s.
 
I’ll be honest it didn’t occur to me to make up a hypothetical black person less adept at spotting racism in his/her presence than yourself.

And you are still conflating ‘seeing’ racism with ‘experiencing’ racism and as for Fox possibly ‘knowing more about the stories and knew the journalists personally’ well yes it’s possible but then the mixed race woman has probably experienced more racism than Fox so well...what exactly? I should put greater value Fox’s opinion on the off chance he might know one of the journos?

And if this is just about taking your opinion, and presumably Fox’s, just as seriously as those who actually experience racism or prejudice then we have to disagree. I don’t elevate my own opinion to the same level as those with direct experience of these issues, and given how fond I am of my own opinion, I am hardly likely to elevate someone else’s.

The girl at work isn’t invented and isn’t hypothetical, she genuinely didn’t know who Robinson was and therefore you’d obviously rather I spoke about it than her, as she doesn’t know anything about him. It’s a key point that someone who shares the same background as the victims of racism, may not necessarily have the best view nor knowledge and therefore may not be a better opinion to go to than someone else who’s more read on the specific perpetrator(s).

It is about spotting racism though isn’t it? That’s what the whole Fox debate was about, whether the media was giving MM the same treatment as previous Royals, whether it was because of how she’s acted or whether it’s racism.

Your point would stand if every single ethnic minority individual in the country has experienced racism to a particular level that means they can understand it perfectly in all forms, can always spot it, knows about all perpetrators of racism against their background and I just don’t believe that’s true.

Another colleague, my former line manager, who still works for us in another role now, is also Jewish, with two Israeli parents.

Now he’s a big Blairite and into politics but he’s not the most clued up in all areas, which he admits.

We’re good friends and often chat about politics and he actually sought my views on why Labour had taken a dark twist into the realms of antisemitism and the crisis in the party. Despite being abused at school for the size of his nose etc. he didn’t understand it on that occasion and I explained the anti-Israel stance within the party and the hatred, the far left have, for the banking elite.

What do I mean by these examples? Well I am more clued up on the EDL and antisemitism in the Labour Party than a Muslim and a Jewish person I am friends with. Their background hasn’t helped them in their knowledge of racists that hate their ethnicity on these specific occasions and telling me I’m neither Muslim nor Jewish and going to them for their opinions, on these occasions, would have been detrimental to the entire debate, as they wouldn’t have been able to give you answer.

Of course a black man growing up in the 1970s will be able to tell you more about that than I ever could and I wouldn’t begin to tell him he’s wrong about those experiences, I just don’t think it means he or anyone else can tell me my opinion on racism today is worthless or less than someone else’s. I may have read something about a trope that he hasn’t, I understand the background to a particular incident more and as I’ve said, I may know more about the guilty parties and therefore my opinion can add to the debate, sometimes more than someone who happens to have the same skin colour to the victim(s).

I also see it as my civic and moral responsibility to talk about it and defend those I think are wrongly accused and defend those I feel are genuine victims of discrimination.
 
free_speech.png

Here in the UK we don't have a written constitution so the 1st amendment bullshit is just that - bullshit
 
The girl at work isn’t invented and isn’t hypothetical, she genuinely didn’t know who Robinson was and therefore you’d obviously rather I spoke about it than her, as she doesn’t know anything about him. It’s a key point that someone who shares the same background as the victims of racism, may not necessarily have the best view nor knowledge and therefore may not be a better opinion to go to than someone else who’s more read on the specific perpetrator(s).

It is about spotting racism though isn’t it? That’s what the whole Fox debate was about, whether the media was giving MM the same treatment as previous Royals, whether it was because of how she’s acted or whether it’s racism.

Your point would stand if every single ethnic minority individual in the country has experienced racism to a particular level that means they can understand it perfectly in all forms, can always spot it, knows about all perpetrators of racism against their background and I just don’t believe that’s true.

Another colleague, my former line manager, who still works for us in another role now, is also Jewish, with two Israeli parents.

Now he’s a big Blairite and into politics but he’s not the most clued up in all areas, which he admits.

We’re good friends and often chat about politics and he actually sought my views on why Labour had taken a dark twist into the realms of antisemitism and the crisis in the party. Despite being abused at school for the size of his nose etc. he didn’t understand it on that occasion and I explained the anti-Israel stance within the party and the hatred, the far left have, for the banking elite.

What do I mean by these examples? Well I am more clued up on the EDL and antisemitism in the Labour Party than a Muslim and a Jewish person I am friends with. Their background hasn’t helped them in their knowledge of racists that hate their ethnicity on these specific occasions and telling me I’m neither Muslim nor Jewish and going to them for their opinions, on these occasions, would have been detrimental to the entire debate, as they wouldn’t have been able to give you answer.

Of course a black man growing up in the 1970s will be able to tell you more about that than I ever could and I wouldn’t begin to tell him he’s wrong about those experiences, I just don’t think it means he or anyone else can tell me my opinion on racism today is worthless or less than someone else’s. I may have read something about a trope that he hasn’t, I understand the background to a particular incident more and as I’ve said, I may know more about the guilty parties and therefore my opinion can add to the debate, sometimes more than someone who happens to have the same skin colour to the victim(s).

I also see it as my civic and moral responsibility to talk about it and defend those I think are wrongly accused and defend those I feel are genuine victims of discrimination.

When you were busy educating these people from varying backgrounds did you ever ask them about their individual experiences? Also when you say your Jewish friend was abused at school ‘for the size of his nose etc’ you mean he was abused for being Jewish?
 
When you were busy educating these people from varying backgrounds did you ever ask them about their individual experiences? Also when you say your Jewish friend was abused at school ‘for the size of his nose etc’ you mean he was abused for being Jewish?

Yes of course I did.

I wasn’t “busy educating them”.

We were having an open chat about Robinson and the EDL and someone asked if she’d ever come across them. She’d heard of the latter but didn’t know much about it and she hadn’t heard of Robinson. I just said they’re a far right group who hate Muslims, he’s the founder and ex leader and a convicted criminal and she didn’t ask much more. She’s funny, very happy in her own ignorance about current affairs is how I’d describe her but she’s a lovely girl and humorous.

My ex Line Manager specifically asked my opinion and I gave it him. Yes he was called “Jew nose” at school and they’d make jokes about him stealing dinner money he said.

Do you not see the point - more specially the latter conversation, how someone outside of the ethnicity being attacked can sometimes have a better understanding of particular incidents or the history behind it?

I may be better read on the civil rights movement than a random black person in Britain, for example.
 
Yes of course I did.

I wasn’t “busy educating them”.

We were having an open chat about Robinson and the EDL and someone asked if she’d ever come across them. She’d heard of the latter but didn’t know much about it and she hadn’t heard of Robinson. I just said they’re a far right group who hate Muslims, he’s the founder and ex leader and a convicted criminal and she didn’t ask much more. She’s funny, very happy in her own ignorance about current affairs is how I’d describe her but she’s a lovely girl and humorous.

My ex Line Manager specifically asked my opinion and I gave it him. Yes he was called “Jew nose” at school and they’d make jokes about him stealing dinner money he said.

Do you not see the point - more specially the latter conversation, how someone outside of the ethnicity being attacked can sometimes have a better understanding of particular incidents or the history behind it?

I may be better read on the civil rights movement than a random black person in Britain, for example.
I'm not sure BobK understands that you can have an open chat and interact in a way that isn't oppositional with someone who might not be in total agreement with you. I feel he's missing out.
 
Yes of course I did.

I wasn’t “busy educating them”.

We were having an open chat about Robinson and the EDL and someone asked if she’d ever come across them. She’d heard of the latter but didn’t know much about it and she hadn’t heard of Robinson. I just said they’re a far right group who hate Muslims, he’s the founder and ex leader and a convicted criminal and she didn’t ask much more. She’s funny, very happy in her own ignorance about current affairs is how I’d describe her but she’s a lovely girl and humorous.

My ex Line Manager specifically asked my opinion and I gave it him. Yes he was called “Jew nose” at school and they’d make jokes about him stealing dinner money he said.

Do you not see the point - more specially the latter conversation, how someone outside of the ethnicity being attacked can sometimes have a better understanding of particular incidents or the history behind it?

I may be better read on the civil rights movement than a random black person in Britain, for example.

Yes. You are citing specific knowledge of a particular individual or situation in a political party as evidence you understand racism as well as, if not better, than the people you are talking to and which one individual has directly experienced.

Now do you see the problem with this?
 
Yes. You are citing specific knowledge of a particular individual or situation in a political party as evidence you understand racism as well as, if not better, than the people you are talking to and which one individual has directly experienced.

Now do you see the problem with this?

No I am not. I cannot believe you’re still struggling with this after I broke it down.

I am saying that just because someone shares the same skin colour as a victim of a particular incident, it doesn’t necessarily mean they know more about it.

Therefore it’s best not to dismiss the opinion of someone who doesn’t, as they may well be better read in terms of what happened and why.

When we’re discussing the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust, we tend to go to actual historians, who may not necessarily be Jewish, rather than picking a random Jewish person out from the street to ask them.

When discussing whether the media was racist to Meghan Markle, I’d much rather speak to a neutral person who’s worked in the media irrelevant of skin colour. Some who knows the publications and some of the journalists who wrote the articles, rather than just listening to that random mixed race woman who told Fox to shut up.

I’m making these points against the argument that “straight white privilege” isn’t a good enough reason to tell someone their opinion doesn’t count.

A side point is being straight white and male definitely doesn’t mean privilege. As this group are much more likely to suffer severe mental health issues to the point of committing suicide and are the least represented group in higher education.
 
I'm not sure BobK understands that you can have an open chat and interact in a way that isn't oppositional with someone who might not be in total agreement with you. I feel he's missing out.

It must be difficult living your life by thinking everyone right of Blair is a fascist but Bob has to live with that.
 

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