Doubt it. They signed their deals with the government that's been overthrown.Chancy Termites said:What's all this about Chevron and Shell signing fracking deals in Ukraine then. Nothing to do with the EU sponsored overthrow of the democratically elected president I hope?
Indeed. Silly western apologists.dazdon said:LOL @ the terminology of 'Apologists'.
Balti said:Ducado said:I take it that the apologists for the Russians will be as equally outraged when the Tartars and other minorities are oppressed and persecuted again by their Russian overlords
the crimean majority don't appear at all persecuted
they appear to be quite happy at the russian presence in fact
its just a bit of land ultimately and surely its the people that inhabit it that count and what they want that is paramount?
the west is being incredibly hypocritical on this issue
Especially myopic when discussing ethnic make up of Crimea and ignoring Cechnya.Ducado said:Balti said:Ducado said:I take it that the apologists for the Russians will be as equally outraged when the Tartars and other minorities are oppressed and persecuted again by their Russian overlords
the crimean majority don't appear at all persecuted
they appear to be quite happy at the russian presence in fact
its just a bit of land ultimately and surely its the people that inhabit it that count and what they want that is paramount?
the west is being incredibly hypocritical on this issue
So you won't be bothered when the Russians start persecuting the Muslim and Jewish minorities? They have form for doing it over the last few hundred years it's nice to see the cellar myopia is still alive and well as long as its not a western country doing it, it's all ok
It's fair enough that you have rightful and genuine concern for the minorities in the region, but I don't think that makes it ok to label me an apologist because I don't think the wishes of the majority should be ignored. The majority of the Ukraine voted for closer relations with Russia and the wishes of the democratic majority have been ignored by violent pro-western protest and unjustified and hypocritical western interference. If Russia starts forced population transfer or massacres of minorities, then of course intervention is justified (although obviously the west never felt justified in preventing this in Palestine and not only doesn't lift a finger about a nearly fifty year-old occupation of the West Bank and Gaza but in fact helps sustain it with military aid in billions per year), but there's little reason to suppose that this is a likely outcome. This is not the Stalin era Soviet Union, in fact, the post-Stalin Soviet Union was quite good at preventing ethnic conflict as the 90s outbreak of ethnic conflict proved after the Soviet Union collapsed.Ducado said:So you won't be bothered when the Russians start persecuting the Muslim and Jewish minorities? They have form for doing it over the last few hundred years it's nice to see the cellar myopia is still alive and well as long as its not a western country doing it, it's all ok
SWP's back said:What a fucking idiotic list.
It fucking is.dazdon said:SWP's back said:What a fucking idiotic list.
It fucking is not.
Would you like to revise it?
SWP's back said:It fucking is.dazdon said:SWP's back said:What a fucking idiotic list.
It fucking is not.
Would you like to revise it?
If you can't see that then you are a prize pillock.
Fair enough.dazdon said:SWP's back said:It fucking is.dazdon said:It fucking is not.
Would you like to revise it?
If you can't see that then you are a prize pillock.
Would you care to elaborate?
I thought I was being just disingenuous enough fielding an overstretched point to counteract some of the more overstretched points on here regarding US/The wests need to intervene.
We don't have to stick to the 'absolute' facts do we?
dazdon said:It's blinkered and obscene to compare post cold war Russia with the United States and the west in general.
Banging the drum for US intervention is a disgrace.
Personally I always knew that the Americans wouldn't fight a country that would fight back with vigour and that insight has been realised.
But we really should start off world war 3 to protect the minorities in this country because it's the morally just thing to do (What an absolutely ridiculous and hypocritical stance to take).
How many countries have the US bombed since WW2?
Here's a list and it's by no means comprehensive...anyone can decide if these are the actions of a kind and caring state hell bent on the rule of international law and the proliferation of goodwill through a benign foreign policy.
China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Belgian Congo 1964
Guatemala 1964
Dominican Republic 1965-66
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Lebanon 1982-84
Grenada 1983-84
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1981-92
Nicaragua 1981-90
Iran 1987-88
Libya 1989
Panama 1989-90
Iraq 1991
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1992-94
Bosnia 1995
Iran 1998
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999
Afghanistan 2001
Libya 2011
To single out those nasty Bolshevik bastards as being an evil entity is crass and insensitive to all of these countries that have been violated by the land of the free.
Is it ok for a part of a country to vote to secede in a referendum?Ducado said:So what's your point exactly?
Is OK for another country to annex a part of another? A yes or no answer will suffice
Stop going around the houses and pointing out other cases, I don't want to know what other countries have done I simply want to know if you think it's right for another country to annex another
Skashion said:Is it ok for a part of a country to vote to secede in a referendum?Ducado said:So what's your point exactly?
Is OK for another country to annex a part of another? A yes or no answer will suffice
Stop going around the houses and pointing out other cases, I don't want to know what other countries have done I simply want to know if you think it's right for another country to annex another
Ducado said:So what's your point exactly?
Is OK for another country to annex a part of another? A yes or no answer will suffice
Stop going around the houses and pointing out other cases, I don't want to know what other countries have done I simply want to know if you think it's right for another country to annex another
dazdon said:Ducado said:So what's your point exactly?
Is OK for another country to annex a part of another? A yes or no answer will suffice
Stop going around the houses and pointing out other cases, I don't want to know what other countries have done I simply want to know if you think it's right for another country to annex another
My point is simple.
Whilst you were explaining earlier on in the thread that the US would step in and protect their interests I was adamant they were not going to do so.
And for them to have done so would have been at the very least hypocritical wouldn't it?
Using terminology like 'Annex' when there appears to have been a parliamentary vote within the Crimean to go back to Russia (there's going to be a referendum on that) is grandstanding in the extreme.
As far as these matters go, it is about as simple as it gets. The Crimea was part of Russia and then the Soviet Union for a long long time. It was handed over in a materially-empty gesture for the 300th anniversary of the unification of the Ukraine and Russia (who are no longer unified) with no effective transfer of sovereignty because both countries were joined and both countries were under the Soviet Union. The majority in the Crimea want to be in Russia and for their national source of law to be centred in Moscow - as it has been for the majority of the lives of the majority of people who live there. I think it's about as clear-cut as it gets. It's more simple than Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and the Falklands, and I'm likewise supportive or at least sensitive to the majority wishes there. I'm also supportive of the Catalonians, the Basques, the Kurds and plenty of other independence movements as long as majority support can be demonstrated in a referendum.<br /><br />-- Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:12 am --<br /><br />Ducado said:Yes it is, however things are not that simple are they otherwise we would have an independent country known as Catalonia and perhaps even Kurdistan, it can't be a unilateral declaration
Anyway that's not the answer to the question I just want to know if it's right or wrong for another country to annex apart of another, yes or no
Just because you've voiced an opinion does not give you any kind of moral upperhand in an argument.Ducado said:You can't have unilateral votes to succeed as I explained earlier, so come on what's the answer yes or no
There was no ethnic conflict post Stalin because Crimea was ethnically cleansed of its indiginous population by Stalin. All Crimean Tatars were deported or killed in 1944 and were only allowed to return in small numbers towards the end of the Soviet era. If you were being consistent with your Palestine analogy you would say that the Russians were occupiers of the land.Skashion said:It's fair enough that you have rightful and genuine concern for the minorities in the region, but I don't think that makes it ok to label me an apologist because I don't think the wishes of the majority should be ignored. The majority of the Ukraine voted for closer relations with Russia and the wishes of the democratic majority have been ignored by violent pro-western protest and unjustified and hypocritical western interference. If Russia starts forced population transfer or massacres of minorities, then of course intervention is justified (although obviously the west never felt justified in preventing this in Palestine and not only doesn't lift a finger about a nearly fifty year-old occupation of the West Bank and Gaza but in fact helps sustain it with military aid in billions per year), but there's little reason to suppose that this is a likely outcome. This is not the Stalin era Soviet Union, in fact, the post-Stalin Soviet Union was quite good at preventing ethnic conflict as the 90s outbreak of ethnic conflict proved after the Soviet Union collapsed.Ducado said:So you won't be bothered when the Russians start persecuting the Muslim and Jewish minorities? They have form for doing it over the last few hundred years it's nice to see the cellar myopia is still alive and well as long as its not a western country doing it, it's all ok
west didsblue said:There was no ethnic conflict post Stalin because Crimea was ethnically cleansed of its indiginous population by Stalin. All Crimean Tatars were deported or killed in 1944 and were only allowed to return in small numbers towards the end of the Soviet era. If you were being consistent with your Palestine analogy you would say that the Russians were occupiers of the land.Skashion said:It's fair enough that you have rightful and genuine concern for the minorities in the region, but I don't think that makes it ok to label me an apologist because I don't think the wishes of the majority should be ignored. The majority of the Ukraine voted for closer relations with Russia and the wishes of the democratic majority have been ignored by violent pro-western protest and unjustified and hypocritical western interference. If Russia starts forced population transfer or massacres of minorities, then of course intervention is justified (although obviously the west never felt justified in preventing this in Palestine and not only doesn't lift a finger about a nearly fifty year-old occupation of the West Bank and Gaza but in fact helps sustain it with military aid in billions per year), but there's little reason to suppose that this is a likely outcome. This is not the Stalin era Soviet Union, in fact, the post-Stalin Soviet Union was quite good at preventing ethnic conflict as the 90s outbreak of ethnic conflict proved after the Soviet Union collapsed.Ducado said:So you won't be bothered when the Russians start persecuting the Muslim and Jewish minorities? They have form for doing it over the last few hundred years it's nice to see the cellar myopia is still alive and well as long as its not a western country doing it, it's all ok