west didsblue said:
Actually less than half of the exiled Tatars have returned to the Crimea. Also, until the 20th century they were the majority in Crimea and prior to the 19th century there were no Russians there at all.
On the other hand there are more Arabs in Israel proper now than there were in 1947.
The reason for the Arab exodus from Palestine in 1948 was as a result of the War of Independence instigated by the surrounding Arab countries.
If the Arabs had accepted the 1947 partition plan, the vast majority of Palestinians would not have moved and would be living in their own state.
The only difference with the Palestinians was that the countries they went to put them in refugee camps rather than integrate them like Israel did with the refugees from Europe and many Arab countries. None of this is really relevant other than to demonstrate that there has always been population movements due to war and it is disingenuous to pick out Israel as being the villain when there are numerous other examples that no-one gives a shit about.
I will re-iterate that the Palestinians should have their own state in the West Bank and Gaza, but ending the occupation immediately would not bring peace as the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza demonstrated. There needs to be a negotiated settlement which requires decent leadership prepared to make concessions on both sides.
They certainly weren't anything like a majority when they were ethnically cleansed rendering your point, that it's easy to win a vote when the other side have been ethnically cleansed, null and void. The referendum had it taken place with 1939 population numbers would still had led to reunification with Russia. On the other hand, the Arabs were a majority (68% of the population of Palestine) and have never been allowed to return. However, hilariously, you pretend this is MY hypocrisy when a) the Tatars have been allowed to return b) were allowed to vote in this referendum. I don't hold either position with regards to the Palestinians. The reality is that they can't return and they can never be allowed a vote inside of Mandatory Palestine borders. That maybe correct morally, ethnically, and legally but expecting Israel to commit suicide by ballot box is not a tenable position.
Due to the existing population fortunately having rights of reproduction, not rights of return. Should the Arabs who never fled be grateful there has been no forced sterilisation or something? There are no rights of return for Palestinians. Palestinian refugees have never returned.
No it wasn't. The exodus started well before the declaration of independence and before the war. 300,000 Arabs had already fled before both events as a result of fear inspired terror attacks by the Haganah, Irgun and Lehi. You do know that Deir Yassin massacre was before the declaration of independence and before the war you know? Most of the rest that followed were legitimate refugees of war. You are peddling old Israeli propaganda which has now mostly been destroyed by declassified and released material. Since the release of
The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948, a report by the intelligence services of the newly formed IDF in June of 1948, the old tale of Arab leaders telling the Arabs to flee has been exposed as lies, as propaganda. It was known AT THE TIME why the Arabs fled. Indeed, it was proudly shouted about:
At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations.
To that was added 15% by the Irgun and the Lehi. 2% due to direct expulsion orders. 1% psychological warfare. So 73% down essentially to deliberate actions meant to cause fear, intimidation and terror by Jewish forces. 22% was then attributed to an Arab crisis of confidence and general fear. Meaning, the intelligence services of the IDF estimated that the calls by Arab leaders were reckoned to be the cause of only 5% of the exodus. 95% of the Palestinians were victims of terror or fears i.e. legitimate refugees, 73% of that 95% being targeted for what was called 'transfer'. There was even a Transfer Committee. I can give you a list of quotes by the very most prominent Israelis like Ben Gurion talking about transfer if you wish. It is quite a collection and quite direct. Indeed, the only debate now being had is whether the ideas held by Jewish leaders transferred to deliberate actions on the ground. That is pretty much all that's left. Jewish leaders wanted Arabs out, did that lead to action on the ground forcing Arabs out? There is no doubt at all about why it happened. The overwhelming majority of Arabs who left in the exodus were forced out by fears for their lives and safety. The Jewish leadership wanted them out. These are now facts established by the release of intelligence documents, Israeli cabinet minutes etc. The only question left being debated is whether the two facts are connected.
Why on Earth would the Arabs have accepted it? On what possible basis? They were losing out on the status quo. They were losing out on Arab ownership of the land. They were the larger population given the smaller amount of land. Jews of course gained in every single instance. Of course Jews accepted and of course Arabs rejected. That's logical self-interest from both sides. That's always the problem with this argument. It is paraded as wisdom that Jews wilfully accepted huge gains and stupidity that the Arabs wouldn't wilfully accept huge losses. It is a nonsense. Both sides went with self-interest.
The Palestinians have been victims of their Arab neighbours as well, on that we agree. Too, the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries was just as wrong as the expulsion of Palestinians. The only tiny and slight mitigation is that it wouldn't have happened without the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs. It was a reaction. A contemptible disgraceful inhumane violent reaction, but a reaction. Fortunately though, this is a resolved situation. Jewish refugees have been rehoused and have a state to call their own, and that is right. The Palestinians are still waiting.
Absolute nonsense. The Palestinians must make concessions? They've got the square root of fuck all to concede. They don't have anything to give up. This is about justice and righting wrongs, not peace. Israel doesn't want peace. That's why it doesn't seek it. It wants to keep the land it occupies. You justify occupation by talking of Israeli security. You see, this simply demonstrates how one-sided you are. You are completely blind to the very obvious problem to Palestinian security caused by occupation. Only Israel's security is important to you. Palestinian security being harmed much worse by Israel's occupation than by Palestinian actions causing harm to Israel's security hasn't even occurred to you apparently. Another Palestinian teenager was shot dead on Wednesday by the occupying forces. Want to know about Palestinian security? Count the dead bodies.
Oh, and Gaza is still occupied just for your information. Israel controls its borders, skies and waters. Under international law, it is still occupying Gaza.
