The Same Old Traps

[Cobwebcat]

I have been avoiding this board since the Ajax loss, but since returning I am not surprised one bit to see us falling into the same old traps that we always do after a loss. The media cracks the 'blame game' whip and we all march in line. It really is astonishing for a group of fans to be so conscious of the way the media works one day, and the next day to then lead the line of dissent conducted by the tabloid press.

The Mancini outer's have been out en masse since the final whistle in Amsterdam and it felt like the posts were already written in anticipation.

European football isn't something that the bank balance can govern. That just helps you on your way. The time necessary to bring a club from regular entrants to the Champions League, to regular knock out places is vast. I'm sure a few statistical boffins could come up with a few outliers, but the fact remains that throughout history, English clubs have taken a very long time to come to terms with the rigors of European football. We have a manger who has won us the FA Cup and the league title in the last two years. Remind me how long it took Ferguson to win anything at Old Trafford? Well it was 6 years. It also took him a fair chunk of time to be able to show any convincing upward trajectory in Europe. Wenger can also be used for historical reference. One of the best managers in the premier league era and still not one the Champions League. That says far more about the Champions League than Arsene Wenger, that's for sure. Finally, the last yard stick I'll use is Chelsea. The never ending changing of managers, high player turnover, and like us, millions of pounds pumped into winning the competition and they needed all the luck in the world to finally clinch it almost a decade after his project began. 6th in the league, yet champions of Europe.

Why can't that be us? Well it would start if we were seeding in pot 1. In our maiden season in the champions league we were seeded to fail. I know that imbalance of fairness can be broken from time to time, but it's still worth noting it's existence. This season we've been in pot two yet had a group that makes us look like pot 3 once again. Dortmund, Read, and Ajax are our current group and we're expected to do just as well as a team handed Cluj, Galatasaray, and Braga. Just because we don't hear Dortmund's name when the biggest clubs in Europe are mentioned (AC, Inter, Barca, Real, Bayern, etc) doesn't mean they're mugs for the taking. Last night when we were all sulking over a defeat, Dortmund were celebrating beating Real Madrid. That's a big deal when you consider Real's players, manager, and Champions League experience. Ajax nearly held the same team to a draw in Amsterdam. We're not playing poor teams by any stretch of the imagination. I firmly believe that you need three things to do well in the Champions League; Top quality players/Top quality manager/Top quality experience of playing together. We have the first two. The third is in the process of being secured.

Mancini is a great manager. Deep down we all know it, but the slow dripping of media-conjured doubt over his job makes everyone shake like a shitting dog with fear that he might not be the man. The only managers who have won the Champions League in such a short time are managers who have inherited the first and final necessities I mentioned above, and have themselves been the second requirement. Mancini is the second, but inherited none of the others. There is an argument he initially had some quality players, but mostly not CL quality. Now we have the players, the manager, and we're just waiting on that elusive experience. We need time to develop as a team, as players, and as a club. With that in mind we should all be saying "Fuck it, I can see the bigger picture here"

I've also noticed that even the new signings are getting it in the neck. Hardly any of them have even featured yet. Again if we look at the history we know it takes some players (if not most players) months to get into the rhythm of their new team, why should this lot be any different? I distinctly remember the resident flappers wishing we'd signed Van Der Vaart instead of Silva during his early days. Looking back that is sheer lunacy, and he's arguable our best player, not to mention one of the best attacking midfielders in the world! Same happened with Yaya when he first signed. Now he's widely regarded as the best midfielder in the league, and rightly so. Why should we expect Garcia to fire on all cylinders after one or two games? Sure that'd be lovely, but it's not realistic. Nastasic looks quality and young, just what we wanted instead of Savic. Sinclair is an as-good-as-version of Johnson, who is younger and seems very willing to learn. Again, exactly what we wanted from a young squad player. Maicon has vast experience, could make our first XI while also provides cover allowing Micah to move to centre back when needed, and hopefully will have a 'Vieira' effect on the younger players. Again, ticking important boxes. Finally Rodwell. A young promising player who with any luck will take over from Barry when he either moves on or hangs his boots. Last summer when he was rumored to join United, people were hailing him as the new Scholes. Be that prediction true or not, it just goes to show that he's rated very highly. Give the guys a chance. These transfers are not "baffling" or hard to understand in the slightest. They fulfill necessary roles in our team.

This club we all love is forever showing evidence that we're heading in the right direction since Mancini took over. Just because we hit a few stumbling blocks (namely in Europe) along the way is no reason to assume he's tactically inept! Short term evaluation is definitely the wrong way to go about assessing ones managerial credentials. That's been proven to us time and time again.

"There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know." - Harry S. Truman


DISCLAIMER: Before anyone decides to bite my head off, this is all my opinion of course, as always :)

I am afraid to say that Mancini is not a great manager. We won the FA Cup and League because we have great players.

The lack of tactics and a game plan in all the European matches, especially the away games has been startling. Why doesn't he ever send City out to defend away from home? We have plenty of pace on the counter eg Dzeko winner at WBA which was counter-attacking perfection. But instead we play into the hands of our opponents.

I don't want Mancini to go mid-season, that would be a mistake, but he's not getting the best out of our players in European competitions, and I don't think he has a clue why that is. And Europe is important to City, therefore it can not be ignored

So you believe we would still have won the league with Hughes in charge then as Mancini made no difference? You twonk!

 

[sh249]

I have been avoiding this board since the Ajax loss, but since returning I am not surprised one bit to see us falling into the same old traps that we always do after a loss. The media cracks the 'blame game' whip and we all march in line. It really is astonishing for a group of fans to be so conscious of the way the media works one day, and the next day to then lead the line of dissent conducted by the tabloid press.

The Mancini outer's have been out en masse since the final whistle in Amsterdam and it felt like the posts were already written in anticipation.

European football isn't something that the bank balance can govern. That just helps you on your way. The time necessary to bring a club from regular entrants to the Champions League, to regular knock out places is vast. I'm sure a few statistical boffins could come up with a few outliers, but the fact remains that throughout history, English clubs have taken a very long time to come to terms with the rigors of European football. We have a manger who has won us the FA Cup and the league title in the last two years. Remind me how long it took Ferguson to win anything at Old Trafford? Well it was 6 years. It also took him a fair chunk of time to be able to show any convincing upward trajectory in Europe. Wenger can also be used for historical reference. One of the best managers in the premier league era and still not one the Champions League. That says far more about the Champions League than Arsene Wenger, that's for sure. Finally, the last yard stick I'll use is Chelsea. The never ending changing of managers, high player turnover, and like us, millions of pounds pumped into winning the competition and they needed all the luck in the world to finally clinch it almost a decade after his project began. 6th in the league, yet champions of Europe.

Why can't that be us? Well it would start if we were seeding in pot 1. In our maiden season in the champions league we were seeded to fail. I know that imbalance of fairness can be broken from time to time, but it's still worth noting it's existence. This season we've been in pot two yet had a group that makes us look like pot 3 once again. Dortmund, Read, and Ajax are our current group and we're expected to do just as well as a team handed Cluj, Galatasaray, and Braga. Just because we don't hear Dortmund's name when the biggest clubs in Europe are mentioned (AC, Inter, Barca, Real, Bayern, etc) doesn't mean they're mugs for the taking. Last night when we were all sulking over a defeat, Dortmund were celebrating beating Real Madrid. That's a big deal when you consider Real's players, manager, and Champions League experience. Ajax nearly held the same team to a draw in Amsterdam. We're not playing poor teams by any stretch of the imagination. I firmly believe that you need three things to do well in the Champions League; Top quality players/Top quality manager/Top quality experience of playing together. We have the first two. The third is in the process of being secured.

Mancini is a great manager. Deep down we all know it, but the slow dripping of media-conjured doubt over his job makes everyone shake like a shitting dog with fear that he might not be the man. The only managers who have won the Champions League in such a short time are managers who have inherited the first and final necessities I mentioned above, and have themselves been the second requirement. Mancini is the second, but inherited none of the others. There is an argument he initially had some quality players, but mostly not CL quality. Now we have the players, the manager, and we're just waiting on that elusive experience. We need time to develop as a team, as players, and as a club. With that in mind we should all be saying "Fuck it, I can see the bigger picture here"

I've also noticed that even the new signings are getting it in the neck. Hardly any of them have even featured yet. Again if we look at the history we know it takes some players (if not most players) months to get into the rhythm of their new team, why should this lot be any different? I distinctly remember the resident flappers wishing we'd signed Van Der Vaart instead of Silva during his early days. Looking back that is sheer lunacy, and he's arguable our best player, not to mention one of the best attacking midfielders in the world! Same happened with Yaya when he first signed. Now he's widely regarded as the best midfielder in the league, and rightly so. Why should we expect Garcia to fire on all cylinders after one or two games? Sure that'd be lovely, but it's not realistic. Nastasic looks quality and young, just what we wanted instead of Savic. Sinclair is an as-good-as-version of Johnson, who is younger and seems very willing to learn. Again, exactly what we wanted from a young squad player. Maicon has vast experience, could make our first XI while also provides cover allowing Micah to move to centre back when needed, and hopefully will have a 'Vieira' effect on the younger players. Again, ticking important boxes. Finally Rodwell. A young promising player who with any luck will take over from Barry when he either moves on or hangs his boots. Last summer when he was rumored to join United, people were hailing him as the new Scholes. Be that prediction true or not, it just goes to show that he's rated very highly. Give the guys a chance. These transfers are not "baffling" or hard to understand in the slightest. They fulfill necessary roles in our team.

This club we all love is forever showing evidence that we're heading in the right direction since Mancini took over. Just because we hit a few stumbling blocks (namely in Europe) along the way is no reason to assume he's tactically inept! Short term evaluation is definitely the wrong way to go about assessing ones managerial credentials. That's been proven to us time and time again.

"There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know." - Harry S. Truman


DISCLAIMER: Before anyone decides to bite my head off, this is all my opinion of course, as always :)

I am afraid to say that Mancini is not a great manager. We won the FA Cup and League because we have great players.

The lack of tactics and a game plan in all the European matches, especially the away games has been startling. Why doesn't he ever send City out to defend away from home? We have plenty of pace on the counter eg Dzeko winner at WBA which was counter-attacking perfection. But instead we play into the hands of our opponents.

I don't want Mancini to go mid-season, that would be a mistake, but he's not getting the best out of our players in European competitions, and I don't think he has a clue why that is. And Europe is important to City, therefore it can not be ignored

To be fair, we have looked like we don't have a real plan in Europe - to me it looks like we're kind of caught between two stools, not having the belief to go out and play an aggressive, high-tempo game (which is when we're at our best), but at the same time, not setting up to be 'properly' defensive and hard to beat. Instead, we're just kind of passive and allow the other team to play and to exploit the weaknesses in our system. That is what is most frustrating for me at the moment - not necessarily the results (and we certainly don't have any right, at this stage of our development, to 'expect' to qualify from the CL group).

That said, the OP is spot on. All of us want to see us rectify our problems in Europe and make progress, and Mancini deserves full backing to do that. All other points about susceptibility to media bullshit, knee-jerking towards players, new signings, and manager etc. are bang on the money, too. Top post.

 

[Cobwebcat]

same old traps maybe, but I think he'll be gone at the end of the season if we now don't win the league whether people like it or not. you can argue whether this is right or wrong but i think you are naive if the owners expect anything less than reaching the knock out stages of the champions league, our success in the league last year is why he is still here. i really love mancini but he'll be gone even sooner if league form drops because in his own words 'this ese football'.

I think it's you that's naive if you think our owners are stupid...and you must....do you think we would give him a 4 year contract and fire him after 1 year? Even baconface knows we have got a great manager and we are not about to shoot ourselves in the foot because the media and some spoilt idiotic city fans say we should.

 

[tonea2003]

I have been avoiding this board since the Ajax loss, but since returning I am not surprised one bit to see us falling into the same old traps that we always do after a loss. The media cracks the 'blame game' whip and we all march in line. It really is astonishing for a group of fans to be so conscious of the way the media works one day, and the next day to then lead the line of dissent conducted by the tabloid press.

The Mancini outer's have been out en masse since the final whistle in Amsterdam and it felt like the posts were already written in anticipation.

European football isn't something that the bank balance can govern. That just helps you on your way. The time necessary to bring a club from regular entrants to the Champions League, to regular knock out places is vast. I'm sure a few statistical boffins could come up with a few outliers, but the fact remains that throughout history, English clubs have taken a very long time to come to terms with the rigors of European football. We have a manger who has won us the FA Cup and the league title in the last two years. Remind me how long it took Ferguson to win anything at Old Trafford? Well it was 6 years. It also took him a fair chunk of time to be able to show any convincing upward trajectory in Europe. Wenger can also be used for historical reference. One of the best managers in the premier league era and still not one the Champions League. That says far more about the Champions League than Arsene Wenger, that's for sure. Finally, the last yard stick I'll use is Chelsea. The never ending changing of managers, high player turnover, and like us, millions of pounds pumped into winning the competition and they needed all the luck in the world to finally clinch it almost a decade after his project began. 6th in the league, yet champions of Europe.

Why can't that be us? Well it would start if we were seeding in pot 1. In our maiden season in the champions league we were seeded to fail. I know that imbalance of fairness can be broken from time to time, but it's still worth noting it's existence. This season we've been in pot two yet had a group that makes us look like pot 3 once again. Dortmund, Read, and Ajax are our current group and we're expected to do just as well as a team handed Cluj, Galatasaray, and Braga. Just because we don't hear Dortmund's name when the biggest clubs in Europe are mentioned (AC, Inter, Barca, Real, Bayern, etc) doesn't mean they're mugs for the taking. Last night when we were all sulking over a defeat, Dortmund were celebrating beating Real Madrid. That's a big deal when you consider Real's players, manager, and Champions League experience. Ajax nearly held the same team to a draw in Amsterdam. We're not playing poor teams by any stretch of the imagination. I firmly believe that you need three things to do well in the Champions League; Top quality players/Top quality manager/Top quality experience of playing together. We have the first two. The third is in the process of being secured.

Mancini is a great manager. Deep down we all know it, but the slow dripping of media-conjured doubt over his job makes everyone shake like a shitting dog with fear that he might not be the man. The only managers who have won the Champions League in such a short time are managers who have inherited the first and final necessities I mentioned above, and have themselves been the second requirement. Mancini is the second, but inherited none of the others. There is an argument he initially had some quality players, but mostly not CL quality. Now we have the players, the manager, and we're just waiting on that elusive experience. We need time to develop as a team, as players, and as a club. With that in mind we should all be saying "Fuck it, I can see the bigger picture here"

I've also noticed that even the new signings are getting it in the neck. Hardly any of them have even featured yet. Again if we look at the history we know it takes some players (if not most players) months to get into the rhythm of their new team, why should this lot be any different? I distinctly remember the resident flappers wishing we'd signed Van Der Vaart instead of Silva during his early days. Looking back that is sheer lunacy, and he's arguable our best player, not to mention one of the best attacking midfielders in the world! Same happened with Yaya when he first signed. Now he's widely regarded as the best midfielder in the league, and rightly so. Why should we expect Garcia to fire on all cylinders after one or two games? Sure that'd be lovely, but it's not realistic. Nastasic looks quality and young, just what we wanted instead of Savic. Sinclair is an as-good-as-version of Johnson, who is younger and seems very willing to learn. Again, exactly what we wanted from a young squad player. Maicon has vast experience, could make our first XI while also provides cover allowing Micah to move to centre back when needed, and hopefully will have a 'Vieira' effect on the younger players. Again, ticking important boxes. Finally Rodwell. A young promising player who with any luck will take over from Barry when he either moves on or hangs his boots. Last summer when he was rumored to join United, people were hailing him as the new Scholes. Be that prediction true or not, it just goes to show that he's rated very highly. Give the guys a chance. These transfers are not "baffling" or hard to understand in the slightest. They fulfill necessary roles in our team.

This club we all love is forever showing evidence that we're heading in the right direction since Mancini took over. Just because we hit a few stumbling blocks (namely in Europe) along the way is no reason to assume he's tactically inept! Short term evaluation is definitely the wrong way to go about assessing ones managerial credentials. That's been proven to us time and time again.

"There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know." - Harry S. Truman


DISCLAIMER: Before anyone decides to bite my head off, this is all my opinion of course, as always :)

great post mate, but you really aren't allowed perspective, you know that don't you
only pitchforks after a defeat!!!

 

[Franny Lee's Barrel Chest]

OP is spot on in my opinion.

If our CL draws had been kinder it would be a different story.

Still, the Mancini outers, once he's out and we start going backwards again will be happy I'm sure. Then they'll really have something to moan about.

United didn't get through a fairly easy group last year, yet Fergie has won the thing, so what does that tell you? That Fergie is crap in Europe? It must do according to the logic of some people.

 

[Danny Hoekman]

Great post OP. unfortunately a lot of posters can only remember the last match and the handful of other matches that "proves" "what they reckon" thankfully we have wiser people in charge.

The level of stupidity has really surprised me following this match. I won't be surprised again.

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised at the level of stupidity. I've maintained for quite some time that 90% of City fans are clueless morons. Great OP by the way - well written and spot on.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Mancini is a great manager. Deep down we all know it,

No we don't. Speak for yourself.

There have been doubts and suspicion about his true quality amongst a proportion of our fanbase since his arrival. And many of these these aren't brainless fans but knowledgeable ones. Some senior football writers echo this view.

He's stubborn, strong and single minded. No doubt about that. But that strength has a flip-side in that he is not a popular manager amongst the players. That in itself brings problems because if they aren't bought in, they don't deliver. He's also tactically awful at times: he tries to be clever and doesn't carry it off.

He won't be going anywhere for the time being, nor should he. But he will be looked at in May next year and if this season is a flop I suspect he'll be gone. That's how it should be. There's been a lot of mud thrown at him, and he's thrown a lot of mud, since his arrival and the question is: how much of it has stuck and how many brownie points did the title bring him?

I'd say he has to win the league now or he's on thin ice. But I'm second guessing Sheikh Mansour and Khaldoon here. It's tough to guage how important is the Champions League to them in the here and now, and how much of a medium/long-term view they take on it.

 

[Josh Blue]

Mancini is a great manager. Deep down we all know it,

No we don't. Speak for yourself.

There have been doubts and suspicion about his true quality amongst a proportion of our fanbase since his arrival. And many of these these aren't brainless fans but knowledgeable ones. Some senior football writers echo this view.

He's stubborn, strong and single minded. No doubt about that. But that strength has a flip-side in that he is not a popular manager amongst the players. That in itself brings problems because if they aren't bought in, they don't deliver. He's also tactically awful at times: he tries to be clever and doesn't carry it off.

He won't be going anywhere for the time being, nor should he. But he will be looked at in May next year and if this season is a flop I suspect he'll be gone. That's how it should be. There's been a lot of mud thrown at him, and he's thrown a lot of mud, since his arrival and the question is: how much of it has stuck and how many brownie points did the title bring him?

I'd say he has to win the league now or he's on thin ice. But I'm second guessing Sheikh Mansour and Khaldoon here. It's tough to guage how important is the Champions League to them in the here and now, and how much of a medium/long-term view they take on it.

You couldn't wait could you. Mancini will prove you wrong once AGAIN. I remember last season you were sure he was HISTORY!

and don't second guess Sheikh Mansour and Khaldoon because you will only make yourself look like a clown.

 

[GaudinoMotors]

Read the OP's analysis and thought I'd pressed a wrong key somewhere. Now isn't the time for rational analytic comment - now is the time to jump ship, panic, remove one's backbone and aim pointy fingers! Kindly tone down the common sense and perspective or get off this site Sir.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Mancini is a great manager. Deep down we all know it,

No we don't. Speak for yourself.

There have been doubts and suspicion about his true quality amongst a proportion of our fanbase since his arrival. And many of these these aren't brainless fans but knowledgeable ones. Some senior football writers echo this view.

He's stubborn, strong and single minded. No doubt about that. But that strength has a flip-side in that he is not a popular manager amongst the players. That in itself brings problems because if they aren't bought in, they don't deliver. He's also tactically awful at times: he tries to be clever and doesn't carry it off.

He won't be going anywhere for the time being, nor should he. But he will be looked at in May next year and if this season is a flop I suspect he'll be gone. That's how it should be. There's been a lot of mud thrown at him, and he's thrown a lot of mud, since his arrival and the question is: how much of it has stuck and how many brownie points did the title bring him?

I'd say he has to win the league now or he's on thin ice. But I'm second guessing Sheikh Mansour and Khaldoon here. It's tough to guage how important is the Champions League to them in the here and now, and how much of a medium/long-term view they take on it.

You couldn't wait could you. Mancini will prove you wrong once AGAIN. I remember last season you were sure he was HISTORY!

and don't second guess Sheikh Mansour and Khaldoon because you will only make yourself look like a clown.

Hahahahahahaha!!!!

I bet the Citizens won't be questioning Saint Bob, will they?