mancity2012_eamo
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Good question.
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Saddleworth2
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No it probably makes you empathetic. You and your Irish brethren will have a different perspective on this which is always interesting. Whenever I think of this, that little speech by Mark Renton as he and his pals visit the highlands always comes to mind. You know the one.A Scottish referendum has nothing to do with me so I shouldn’t get wound up either, yet I found catching up on the sudden increase in pages last night quite depressing, regarding some of the views from people I would regard as not having a say in it either.
That in itself is not down to me not understanding how the UK works or how the individual citizens of the component countries think, but that demonstration of a prevalent view from some quarters reminds me why Irish participation in such a union was always doomed.
It’s not how we think. And being told by London that that’s how it would be, was never going to work.
I won’t derail the thread with the several other Irish issues that run through history, but me being depressed on behalf of the Scots? Does that make me ‘woke’.
Saddleworth2
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We can be an independent flourishing nation just as Ireland is now. Our political values are different to our southern neighbours and have been for decades. The Union cannot thrive whilst that is he case and it is time for a new chapter.I have the same fear of a Sinn Fein lead government both north and south of the border and an even bigger fear of a United Ireland should it ever materialise. How could we ever afford it, but could I see myself voting against it?
That’s a difficult one.
I don’t see how Scotland could be more impoverished than The Repubic was back in the 1920’s. You would be in a far better place. We hadn’t a pot to piss in, which is one reason the educational system was handed over to the clergy.
Regarding currency. We stayed with Sterling parity for well over half a century before going with the Punt firstly and then adopting the Euro.
We just need to make the decision and then get on with it.
mancity2012_eamo
Well-Known Member
I’m guessing this one;No it probably makes you empathetic. You and your Irish brethren will have a different perspective on this which is always interesting. Whenever I think of this, that little speech by Mark Renton as he and his pals visit the highlands always comes to mind. You know the one.
Irvine Welsh, TrainspottingFuckin failures in a country of failures. Its nae good blamin it oan the English fir colonising us. Ah don't hate the English. They're just wankers. We are colonised by wankers. We can't even pick a decent, vibrant healthy society to be colonised by. No..we are ruled by effete arseholes. What does that make us? The lowest of the low, the scum of the earth. The most wretched servile, miserable, pathetic trash that was ever shat intae creation. Ah don't hate the English. They just git oan wis the shite thev got. Ah hate the Scots.
Saddleworth2
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An interesting soliloquy. Funny? True? Prophetic? Who knows.
I hope we are brave enough to fashion our own future.
Going back to the outcome of the court decision. The outcome, not the decision itself.
Can anyone really see it as a positive thing (I don't mean right or wrong)? Surely even the most ardent independence hopefuls, and union conservists for that matter, would rather have whatever comes next go through a fair and open referendum, than whatever may now come.
I can't for the life of me imagine myself wanting independence, coming through some back door cobbled together mechanism, that still leaves doubt and likely sets for division. Similarly, for it to fail it has to fail properly, not because the only route left available didn't work. Otherwise we are back to where we were, will not respected, chance not given, and the cycle starts again.
Can anyone really see it as a positive thing (I don't mean right or wrong)? Surely even the most ardent independence hopefuls, and union conservists for that matter, would rather have whatever comes next go through a fair and open referendum, than whatever may now come.
I can't for the life of me imagine myself wanting independence, coming through some back door cobbled together mechanism, that still leaves doubt and likely sets for division. Similarly, for it to fail it has to fail properly, not because the only route left available didn't work. Otherwise we are back to where we were, will not respected, chance not given, and the cycle starts again.
An interesting soliloquy. Funny? True? Prophetic? Who knows.
Or none of the above.
Saddleworth2
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Yes that too.Or none of the above.
Saddleworth2
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At some time, something has to give assuming that the pressure for a referendum continues. Either the Westminster government grants permission or some sort of quasi referendum is held which will have dubious legal standing. I guess if the SNP run their GE campaign on a single question and they have a supra majority (say over 55%) they will ask the question again of Westminster and expect a different answer. That’s a massive risk for them though. If the answer is still No then frankly, fuck knows But the resultant tension will be dangerous in the extreme.Going back to the outcome of the court decision. The outcome, not the decision itself.
Can anyone really see it as a positive thing (I don't mean right or wrong)? Surely even the most ardent independence hopefuls, and union conservists for that matter, would rather have whatever comes next go through a fair and open referendum, than whatever may now come.
I can't for the life of me imagine myself wanting independence, coming through some back door cobbled together mechanism, that still leaves doubt and likely sets for division. Similarly, for it to fail it has to fail properly, not because the only route left available didn't work. Otherwise we are back to where we were, will not respected, chance not given, and the cycle starts again.
independence has to be built legally is the bottom line.
At some time, something has to give assuming that the pressure for a referendum continues. Either the Westminster government grants permission or some sort of quasi referendum is held which will have dubious legal standing. I guess if the SNP run their GE campaign on a single question and they have a supra majority (say over 55%) they will ask the question again of Westminster and expect a different answer. That’s a massive risk for them though. If the answer is still No then frankly, fuck knows But the resultant tension will be dangerous in the extreme.
independence has to be built legally is the bottom line.
This is it. Both sides can't cling onto an impasse, as much as I personally believe they both want to.
An informal unofficial view-gathering referendum, unlikely to be taken seriously and results may be skewed as not everyone would want to legitimise it.
A GE on a single issue in Scotland only, and range of issues everywhere else is a fucking terrible idea. And it wouldn't work either way. And unlikely to be entertained by the other parties, which just makes it all fall apart.
Wait for the Holyrood election, and run it on a single issue in 4 years? That's imo where really want it to go. But I am totally not ok with it, and I don't see how even those that really want independence should be.
It also isn't clear, when they talk about having a 50% vote if using an election as a defacto referendum, whether they mean 50% of the vote or the seats. The first, no chance of happening. The second, I think would be totally unfair and not in any way a meaningful representatation.