Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
Have a shot at answering the three questions I posed. Genuinely interested in your views on:
who was the target audience?
what reaction is it intended to excite?
why are they doing that?
who was the target audience?
what reaction is it intended to excite?
why are they doing that?
Do you think it’s fair for the SNP to blame every single issue in Scotland, many of which they have power over, on the UK government?
blueparrot
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As one that voted no last time and am leaning to yes now, I’d agree most could be persuaded back. However time is almost out and I don’t see the remotest prospect of this government doing what would be required to persuade me at least.
Think they would need to start by listening to Gordon Brown and working on a more federalist plan, they would need to allow a different Brexit in Scotland than the one in England. My opinion is non of that will happen this side of an election which being 4 years off will be too late.
As you say the media and Boris seem to forget it’s people in Scotland like myself they need to persuade not convince the more rabid anti independence people in England that they need to be even angrier about Scottish independence than they already are.
1. Disgruntled English people who are sick of the SNP
2. I don’t know, maybe they wanted to incite anger, maybe the author has lost his own temper and is lashing out.
3. See point 2.
Reading it, it could have easily been written by a random anti SNP poster on here, who’s had one too many. I actually don’t think it’s calculated, it’s too all over the place to be calculated. I think the author has lost his head and is lashing out at what’s pissing him off.
Which is never a good look.
On the flip side I think we need to reverse devolution and bring Britain back under being one country again.
If the Tories were serious about keeping the Union and I think once Covid and Brexit are out of the way it needs to be the number one priority, they need to get Ruth Davidson back and make her Prime Minister.
They won’t though.
Not at all, i think it is an easy (cop-)out. I've said so myself.
The proble is this article turning that into a scottish vs english thing, and describing Westminster as exactly what campaigners of both extremes are trying to portray it as, and English parliament.
Surely you see the difference. And that different in itself makes what Would be a valid point, completely untrue. And it isn't (at that point) just a matter of tone, as is the case for the rest of it.
Nailed it.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
And has been passed by the editor of a national newspaper.....
Calculated rather than random.
Agree with your first answer and the first half of your second. Why would the fail want to wind up the English regarding the SNP/Scotland (it did implicitly go further than the SNP, a very large percentage of Scots have voted for them)?
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree. I was being hypothetical I guess and this government will not engage in intelligent persuasion as it would mean agreeing to things which are against its plan. Hence the framing of the argument that whatever happens it will be Scotlands fault and as long as enough folk in England believe that, there will not be too great a hit on Tory support because they lost the Union.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
Ruth is a totally busted flush. The only chance for Tories in Scotland is if they break from the English version.
west didsblue
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I think you've nailed it there.
This current UK government should drop the "and Unionist" part from their official title as they have demonstrated beyond doubt that they don't give a fuck about the union if they can stay in power in England where their core support lives. They've sold out NI and are doing their best to completely piss Scotland off. They probably think that without those 77 constituencies in the two countries of which only 6 are Conservative and a further 7 vote with them from NI they would have an unassailable lead in England and would be in power forever.
shootmeifipost10k
Well-Known Member
With me being on part time furlough can anyone point me to the SNP actual plan for independence as I fancy a read. All I can find is a 11 point plan that doesn't actually say much
As it changed since the last one.
It is ok ramping up support for independence with lots of shouting but failing at the last hurdle to turn those votes around with actual plans that would at the very least this time look workable and acceptable will be a disaster for them.
I'm not being sarcastic here but have they got an actual currecy plan, I can't find one ?
As it changed since the last one.
It is ok ramping up support for independence with lots of shouting but failing at the last hurdle to turn those votes around with actual plans that would at the very least this time look workable and acceptable will be a disaster for them.
I'm not being sarcastic here but have they got an actual currecy plan, I can't find one ?
I personally disagree, myself. But, i do recognize that theory does have logic and is an interesting take on it. Albeit probably completely impossible, other than through a reeeeally slooow and incremental long term cultural shift.
On your suggestion of reverese devolution that is, not on Ruth Davidson as PM, who is grossly overrated imho (but still the best the scottish conservatives have had). She had a flash in the pan moment of passionate case for remaining in the EU (which i myself really liked) somewhat beyond her party line. Which was hugely amplified by the media. And timed really well with labour and libdem leaders being both useless and unlikeable, which at BBC a time of backlash at the snp and post 'neverendum' fatigue made her by default the only semi credible opposition. She has done really well to create an image of herself, but anyone that has seen her in the Scottish Parliament, can think that she is a one string banjo, and an out of tune one at that. She has done really well though, in the way she has removed and distanced herself from the current shitshow, and managed to make it look like an act of integrity and dignity for the Scottish audience, while not pissing on otlr pissing off her Party heirarchy. She can then bide her time and come in as a credible player when it suits her and the circumstances are right, and i'm sure at that point she will be.
west didsblue
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They published a 650 page white paper last time. I suspect they will do something similar if there is a referendum announced. Until then I suspect that the 2013 plan is your best bet as most of it probably won't change.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/
blueparrot
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Davidson is a strange case. I never voted for her but she seemed like a breath of fresh air and when she returned 13 ,I think,Scottish mps in a small tory majority, I thought she had a chance to influence the party and Brexit and may even have stood for Westminster and become a big hitter. She had or could have had the same power the DUP had at that time. She never used that influence though.
Then she seemed to lose interest and stepped down. Even now as a stand in she is extremely lackluster and has hardly laid a glove on Sturgeon. Think in the May election the tories will really suffer from having her in Holyrood and Ross just seemingly hanging about in the background chipping in every now and then.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
So this is the most detailed piece of work produced by a think tank commissioned by the Scottish Government. Its quite a long document but a relatively easy read, It doesn't answer everything and things may change when an independence campaign is launched. The one big variance between the report and 'official SNP' policy is currency. The findings of this report around currency were not accepted at the SNP conference in 2019. Instead members voted to introduce a new currency the Scottish pound rather than retain sterling for a period then move to a new currency (prob Euro). In my opinion, this is a big mistake and I can still see it changing when we get down to the nitty gritty.
You will see that in terms of finances, the proposals no longer rely on oil revenues and are certainly a step forward in depth and thinking than they were at the last referendum. My big question that I still believe could stop independence is do the Scottish Government have the capability and the capacity to deliver an independence plan. They cannot expect a willing and capable government to negotiate any deal with either. Let us know what you think :-)
Read report — Sustainable Growth Commission
Scotland – the new case for optimism A strategy for inter-generational economic renaissance
www.sustainablegrowthcommission.scot
blueparrot
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You could add this in as well, though this will be out of date post covid too.
Read report — Sustainable Growth Commission
Scotland – the new case for optimism A strategy for inter-generational economic renaissance
www.sustainablegrowthcommission.scot
That is because her breath of fresh air was a combination of an oveblown flash in a pan public appearance, and the stars absolutely aligning for her, at that point.
Where she deserves absolute credit is for being clever enough to realize that.
She didn't use her influence or attempt at becoming a big hitter, because she knew it wasnt real. And would have come crashing down like a house of cards built on what some desperatelybwanted to hear at that time (myself and seemingly you included).
She didn't lose interest and stepp down, she saw the state of things and removed herself for a time when she can build on the image she can for now leave untarnished.
As i say, full credit for the cleverness and awareness of that.
She is in it for the long game.
If the game isn't a bogie by that point.