The Scottish Politics thread

[Saddleworth2]

They lap up free money thats for sure. But woe betide anyone who reminds them of it, because its all theirs and they earned and deserve it above everyone else in the UK.

What is this free money you speak of?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

What is this free money you speak of?

Probably not the right term. should be extra.

 

[blueinsa]

The SNP spend 90% of their time telling Westminster to keep it's nose out and when asked why something isn't being done, the other 10% saying it's because Westminster won't pay for it.

 

[ganganvince]

This indepedance stuff getting boring now grant the vote spring 24 but terms if indepedance voted for agreed upfront %age of UK debt to be taken by Scotland ownership of assets agreed. Islands to be polled separately etc no agreement equals no vote and regardless of outcome no revisit prior to 2060

 

[Saddleworth2]

Probably not the right term. should be extra.

extra over what?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

extra over what?

Weve been here before Saddleworth, you're an intelligent chap, you work it out.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Weve been here before Saddleworth, you're an intelligent chap, you work it out.

We have, I am (relatively).

Do you mean Scotland gets more than some other regions of the UK from the Barnett formulae? Thats true. But so does the North West of England, Wales, Northern Ireland, London.......
All regions get different amounts per head of population for reasons that have been supported by Governments ad nausea. There are only one or two Regions of the UK that actually have surplus and subsidise the rest of the nation. Hardly surprising with so much investment in the South East which is a core reason that so many in the UK feel unhappy with their lot.

If thats what you mean why do you have such an issue that Scotland chooses (for good or bad) to spend it on priorities that devolution allows the Scottish parliament to deem necessary? Is it that you wish the North West has similar devolved responsibilities? I certainly wish you had. Just maybe, if this was fairer throughout the UK, there wouldn't be such a surge towards Scottish independence but then the English keep voting in a Tory government that will only perpetuate the SE/London centric status quo and the longer Johnson remains PM the more certain independence becomes. But don't you think the debate deserves better than cheap jibes and false representation of what most Scots actually think about the matter?

 

[blueparrot]

We have, I am (relatively).

Do you mean Scotland gets more than some other regions of the UK from the Barnett formulae? Thats true. But so does the North West of England, Wales, Northern Ireland, London.......
All regions get different amounts per head of population for reasons that have been supported by Governments ad nausea. There are only one or two Regions of the UK that actually have surplus and subsidise the rest of the nation. Hardly surprising with so much investment in the South East which is a core reason that so many in the UK feel unhappy with their lot.

If thats what you mean why do you have such an issue that Scotland chooses (for good or bad) to spend it on priorities that devolution allows the Scottish parliament to deem necessary? Is it that you wish the North West has similar devolved responsibilities? I certainly wish you had. Just maybe, if this was fairer throughout the UK, there wouldn't be such a surge towards Scottish independence but then the English keep voting in a Tory government that will only perpetuate the SE/London centric status quo and the longer Johnson remains PM the more certain independence becomes. But don't you think the debate deserves better than cheap jibes and false representation of what most Scots actually think about the matter?

If anyone wants to understand why Scotland could well vote for independace, the people they should be asking are those 10% that voted no last time and could well vote yes next.
If they understood those peoples reason issues and concerns and then maybe they could head off any UK break up.
It’s an argument often used against me by some of the same posters that are against independence when I argued against Brexit, that EU intransigence led to a leave vote.

 

[Saddleworth2]

If anyone wants to understand why Scotland could well vote for independace, the people they should be asking are those 10% that voted no last time and could well vote yes next.
If they understood those peoples reason issues and concerns and then maybe they could head off any UK break up.
It’s an argument often used against me by some of the same posters that are against independence when I argued against Brexit, that EU intransigence led to a leave vote.

I am one of the 10%. I voted no on the basis that I thought it ensured ongoing membership of the EU. How foolish was I. In only 18 of the last 50 years there has been a government that Scotland voted for. The Tories haven’t been the favoured party in Scotland since the 1950’s. Our elected representatives are openly and regularly mocked at Westminster. Is it so surprising that many do not support the status quo and believe that even if it is painful for a period, the ability to govern ourselves is worth the price.

Brexiteers shout about sovereignty and then dismiss completely Scotlands wish to have it.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

We have, I am (relatively).

Do you mean Scotland gets more than some other regions of the UK from the Barnett formulae? Thats true. But so does the North West of England, Wales, Northern Ireland, London.......
All regions get different amounts per head of population for reasons that have been supported by Governments ad nausea. There are only one or two Regions of the UK that actually have surplus and subsidise the rest of the nation. Hardly surprising with so much investment in the South East which is a core reason that so many in the UK feel unhappy with their lot.

If thats what you mean why do you have such an issue that Scotland chooses (for good or bad) to spend it on priorities that devolution allows the Scottish parliament to deem necessary? Is it that you wish the North West has similar devolved responsibilities? I certainly wish you had. Just maybe, if this was fairer throughout the UK, there wouldn't be such a surge towards Scottish independence but then the English keep voting in a Tory government that will only perpetuate the SE/London centric status quo and the longer Johnson remains PM the more certain independence becomes. But don't you think the debate deserves better than cheap jibes and false representation of what most Scots actually think about the matter?

No cheap jibes just facts, you just dont like being reminded of the fact that you do get a much better deal than most English regions. How is that a false representation?

FYI I believe in a fair distribution of UK wealth across the entire UK based on a needs basis. Not based political expediency. You appear to prefer the latter and you and others repeatedly try and justify it.

Imagine if the shoe were on the other foot and England got more money spent on it that those north of the border. Imagine the uproar from Sturgeon then. She would definitely have much stronger support for independence then I would imagine?

But since devolution, which has given her and the SNP a soapbox she has had Johnson and every UK government running scared since, so they are afraid to implement a fairer deal for all UK citizens. You only had to look at Camerons rather pathetic bribes in the run up to the independence vote to see that. Johnson is no different.

No UK PM wants to go down in History as the person in charge when the Union broke up. Thats politicians and their egos for you. This is despite large scale ambivalence at best and wilful demand at worst to Scottish independence south of the border.

Finally my views on UK wealth distribution have nothing to do with independence as you are not an independent sovereign state.

 

[blueparrot]

But since devolution, which has given her and the SNP a soapbox she has had Johnson and every UK government running scared since, so they are afraid to implement a fairer deal for all UK citizens. You only had to look at Camerons rather pathetic bribes in the run up to the independence vote to see that. Johnson is no different.

Whether that was true or not previously, brexit has changed the balance. Johnsons inflexibility over an eu deal has entrenched the view in Scotland that we need to break away. Johnson will almost entirely be responsible if and when the UK breaks up.

 

[Saddleworth2]

No cheap jibes just facts, you just dont like being reminded of the fact that you do get a much better deal than most English regions. How is that a false representation?

FYI I believe in a fair distribution of UK wealth across the entire UK based on a needs basis. Not based political expediency. You appear to prefer the latter and you and others repeatedly try and justify it.

Imagine if the shoe were on the other foot and England got more money spent on it that those north of the border. Imagine the uproar from Sturgeon then. She would definitely have much stronger support for independence then I would imagine?

But since devolution, which has given her and the SNP a soapbox she has had Johnson and every UK government running scared since, so they are afraid to implement a fairer deal for all UK citizens. You only had to look at Camerons rather pathetic bribes in the run up to the independence vote to see that. Johnson is no different.

No UK PM wants to go down in History as the person in charge when the Union broke up. Thats politicians and their egos for you. This is despite large scale ambivalence at best and wilful demand at worst to Scottish independence south of the border.

Finally my views on UK wealth distribution have nothing to do with independence as you are not an independent sovereign state.

I'm trying to identify facts in your response and all I can see is opinion. The fact that Scotland gets more per head than some other regions is fact and I never disputed that. I'm not going through the reasons the Scottish amount is greater as part of the Barnett formulae again with you as you simply ignore and dismiss any rationale. FWIW the two 'needs basis' reviews that have been carried out still showed the devolved countries as needing more per head than England.

I will have to disagree that you use cheap jibes mate. The thread is full of them. Anyway, despite our opinions being miles apart I wish you a lovely Sunday.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Whether that was true or not previously, brexit has changed the balance. Johnsons inflexibility over an eu deal has entrenched the view in Scotland that we need to break away. Johnson will almost entirely be responsible if and when the UK breaks up.

i think you will find he trying to do a deal with the EU. but that is a different debate

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I'm trying to identify facts in your response and all I can see is opinion. The fact that Scotland gets more per head than some other regions is fact and I never disputed that. I'm not going through the reasons the Scottish amount is greater as part of the Barnett formulae again with you as you simply ignore and dismiss any rationale. FWIW the two 'needs basis' reviews that have been carried out still showed the devolved countries as needing more per head than England.

I will have to disagree that you use cheap jibes mate. The thread is full of them. Anyway, despite our opinions being miles apart I wish you a lovely Sunday.

Cheap jibes against Sturgeon really. You are a touch sensitive are you not? She is just another attention seeking politician that likes the sound of her own voice a little too much for my liking and surely we have too many of those of all persuasions. She also gets an easy ride on this forum and in the national media compared to Johnson. Thats where this latest debate started because I dared to accuse her of gesture politics. Im not a fan of his but the fact is no one would have batted an eyelid if i said it about Johnson yet bluthruandthru was clearly so upset by such an accusation against his Nicola he called it disgusting. Quite amusing really. Anyway I hope you also have a good Sunday. Cheers

 

[blueparrot]

i think you will find he trying to do a deal with the EU. but that is a different debate

No it isn’t a different debate, the 2 are directly linked, without brexit, a second referendum would most likely not even be a debate because there would be no likelihood of it winning.Even a a proper deal with some sort Norway partnership with the eu would similarly make the independence debate irrelevant, the deal Johnson wants, even if he could get it isn’t wanted in Scotland along with his Irish borders and is what will break the UK apart.
When that happens Johnson his government and his supporters will be the ones that are to blame. No doubt though they will try and blame those that have never made any secret that they wanted independence.

 

[Vicious111]

Perhaps you need to look at a map that shows sovereign UK waters, that might help you understand reality rather than some wishful thinking.

Did the oil in the North sea move to the English channel overnight?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

No it isn’t a different debate, the 2 are directly linked, without brexit, a second referendum would most likely not even be a debate because there would be no likelihood of it winning.Even a a proper deal with some sort Norway partnership with the eu would similarly make the independence debate irrelevant, the deal Johnson wants, even if he could get it isn’t wanted in Scotland along with his Irish borders and is what will break the UK apart.
When that happens Johnson his government and his supporters will be the ones that are to blame. No doubt though they will try and blame those that have never made any secret that they wanted independence.

I agree that without brexit the debate around another referendum may not exist, but you also have to take this in the context of the SNP being desperate to constantly raise their single issue for existence to the top of the agenda. I personally don't see the current success of the SNP as either a ringing endorsement of remain or independence per se, but rather an expression by the Scottish electorate of their disdain for the current state of the two main Westminster options.
The SNP are an effective campaign group, but not as effective in government as they pretend to be once you scratch below the surface. If they become the govt of an independent Scotland they lose both their reason to exist (see Farage post brexit), and also their current get out of jail card of blaming Westminster for their own failings in govt.

 

[blueparrot]

I agree that without brexit the debate around another referendum may not exist, but you also have to take this in the context of the SNP being desperate to constantly raise their single issue for existence to the top of the agenda. I personally don't see the current success of the SNP as either a ringing endorsement of remain or independence per se, but rather an expression by the Scottish electorate of their disdain for the current state of the two main Westminster options.
The SNP are an effective campaign group, but not as effective in government as they pretend to be once you scratch below the surface. If they become the govt of an independent Scotland they lose both their reason to exist (see Farage post brexit), and also their current get out of jail card of blaming Westminster for their own failings in govt.

That’s obviously nonsense, there’s a reason they have been in government for 12 years and look like ‘breaking’ the system again in spring for a second time increasing their vote and winning an overall majority. You don’t do that by being a single issue campaign group.
Comparisons to Farage equally ridiculous. They have governed and ran the economy and services for years unlike Farage. Even after losing a referendum they were re-elected.Have they done it all well? Thats another matter but to keep winning elections then I’d say they have done it to more peoples satisfaction than not.
Comparing the SNP to the Brexit party shows a total lack of understanding of Scottish politics and the parties.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

That’s obviously nonsense, there’s a reason they have been in government for 12 years and look like ‘breaking’ the system again in spring for a second time increasing their vote and winning an overall majority. You don’t do that by being a single issue campaign group.
Comparisons to Farage equally ridiculous. They have governed and ran the economy and services for years unlike Farage. Even after losing a referendum they were re-elected.Have they done it all well? Thats another matter but to keep winning elections then I’d say they have done it to more peoples satisfaction than not.
Comparing the SNP to the Brexit party shows a total lack of understanding of Scottish politics and the parties.

Yep, seems I was wrong - thanks for putting me right. Apologies - it seems my inability to consider any view but my own has led to me adopting a position of ignorance based upon an empty rather than an open mind.

 

[blueparrot]

Yep, seems I was wrong - thanks for putting me right. Apologies - it seems my inability to consider any view but my own has led to me adopting a position of ignorance based upon an empty rather than an open mind.

If you think the SNP are remotely comparable to Farage and the Brexit party , then yes it’s a position based on ignorance.