The Tottenham Thread 13/14 part 3.

[Marvin]

Liking AVB's attitude at the moment. I think his team are playing for him.

Some great football on MOTD tonight. The Premiership is unbelievably good at the moment

 

[gooner2]

Well we were pretty much piss poor tonight again despite winning. Two long range hit and pray shots saved us.

Saw about 25 minutes of the game including the last 10 and I agree, but Fulham were great today. Very unlucky to not even get a draw. Had two great chances in the last 5 minutes or so. I look at the Tottenham squad and it looks a mess. I doubt you could get anyone in, who would do a better job than AVB.

Think few could do better job then what avb done with 110 million pounds bought of talent. arsene , pep, klopp and jose for starters

Anyway good win for him tonight . needed it even if they still look far from amazing . But much needed for manager who had a tough november.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Spurs will click and be sensational.

as always though it'll be in an attempt to get CL.

 

[fac63]

I agree with just about everything you said there (except the part about being 5th). Especially the Soldado bit. It is becoming painfully obvious that we bought the wrong guy. Time to tease something out of Adebayor as he's the closest we've got. Maybe back to the future with Berbatov in January?

But we HAVE to get better wing play. And the left back situation is laughable give that we shipped out BAE in the summer.

Rubbish, he had 34 goals and 6 assists last season. That's exactly what we wanted in the summer and he was the right guy for Valencia because they played in a way that suited his skills. Maybe AVB/Baldini thought he could hold the ball up like Benteke but anyone who watched La Liga last season knew what we were getting. If the player turns out to be different than you expected, you have to swallow your pride and set up the team in a way that plays to their strengths instead of stick with a system that nullifies all their strengths.

I think we're actually getting at the same place from 2 directions. I don't doubt Soldado's quality. I just think we bought the wrong guy for the system that AVB wants to play. And I say we bought poorly because that deal was sorted early and surely when you target someone that early and shell out that kind of money, you need to be pretty certain that he is the guy for the league and the system you want to play. Whose fault was that? AVB's, Levy, Baldini? Or a combination? I don't claim to know, but that he has not settled in well is, I think, inarguable.

 

[Castiel]

Their realistic contenders for that final spot are Liverpool, Everton and United. I couldn't call it between them at the moment, but Liverpool are currently my favourites - mainly because of Suarez. I wouldn't usually expect Everton to sustain it, but they've got a new manager and a good striker for the first time in a long time and that is making a big difference for them. I don't think Spurs will do it tbh, not unless there is a huge turnaround in this performance quality soon. They've been struggling all season. Was it the first three games all won by a penalty? That was never going to last.

 

[supercrystal7]

I agree with just about everything you said there (except the part about being 5th). Especially the Soldado bit. It is becoming painfully obvious that we bought the wrong guy. Time to tease something out of Adebayor as he's the closest we've got. Maybe back to the future with Berbatov in January?

But we HAVE to get better wing play. And the left back situation is laughable give that we shipped out BAE in the summer.

Rubbish, he had 34 goals and 6 assists last season. That's exactly what we wanted in the summer and he was the right guy for Valencia because they played in a way that suited his skills. Maybe AVB/Baldini thought he could hold the ball up like Benteke but anyone who watched La Liga last season knew what we were getting. If the player turns out to be different than you expected, you have to swallow your pride and set up the team in a way that plays to their strengths instead of stick with a system that nullifies all their strengths.

I think we're actually getting at the same place from 2 directions. I don't doubt Soldado's quality. I just think we bought the wrong guy for the system that AVB wants to play. And I say we bought poorly because that deal was sorted early and surely when you target someone that early and shell out that kind of money, you need to be pretty certain that he is the guy for the league and the system you want to play. Whose fault was that? AVB's, Levy, Baldini? Or a combination? I don't claim to know, but that he has not settled in well is, I think, inarguable.

Exactly and I think the blame is not at AVB's door here, because I don't think he was making the signings for several reasons I have said before in this forum, but I could be wrong and have no inside information. If I am not wrong, AVB's title is also Head Coach?

 

[supercrystal7]

Well couple of points, imo either Lennon or Lamela is easily good enough for the right wing. The one that starts should depend on the opponent. I wouldn't say Lennon is better than Lamela from what I've seen, but the only place for either of them is the right wing imo (except Lamela can play in the #10 position as well.

We will see if Lamela can play the 10 position. A lot of wingers believe they can.

Central midfield should be Sandro and Dembele, it is a good partnership. Paulinho can play higher up on the pitch to support Soldado, but he's already been overused this season and is clearly still adjusting to the league. On the left we have the possibilities of Chadli, Sigurdsson, Townsend, and Eriksen. I think Eriksen is by far the best option.

So imo we can put out a balanced team. We fucked up by not buying a left back in the summer which was fucking stupid, but that is the only part of our squad that lacks balance to me. If we played quicker football and counterattacked, then it wouldn't be a problem that Soldado can't hold the ball up because he is a very good striker in other areas. We just aren't playing to his strengths.

But that is mostly unimportant. AVB's style of football (so far) is WAY to slow, we started the game lackadaisically and then wondered why we were sucker punched. Every game we start off playing the ball backward, passing sideways, playing at a turtle's pace, and it gives the other team the initiative when they start pressing and winning the ball back. I actually understand why we do it, it is because AVB thinks that keeping the ball among the center backs will bring the other team's midfielders and strikers into our half of the pitch, which will create more space to pass into behind those players. That would work in the Serie A (or the Portuguese league), but the Premier league is too fast paced with too little time on the ball for that strategy to work. With the right style of play, this team could be very good imo but we simply don't have the players to condense ourselves in the opponent's half of the pitch and try to break them down with intricate play. We do have the players to break quickly and to create chances on the counterattack but the problem is that we never actually do that. AVB insists on a ridiculous system that doesn't suit the players we have or the league we play in, that is the problem.

-- Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:41 am --

1. Erikson and Sigurdson are not good on the left. Sigurdson can do a job, but to really shine there he needs a full back to overlap and give him space. As it stand they both lack pace and if you play one of them on the left, it's easy to shut down. The full back stops them cutting in and relies on his own pace to cover if they go down the line.

2. You claim you should play a counter attacking game, but you neglect that this does not suit half your players. Holtby and Sigurdson, both came to prominence and earnt their big moves by playing in possession based teams: Schalke and Swansea. Nothing I have seen from them leads me to believe they would be at their best in a counter attacking team. The same goes for Erikson, whose big weakness is his physicality. I have not seen much of Lamela, but from what I have seen he does not suit a counter attacking game either and nor does Soldaldo.

3. You said you want to play Dembele and Sandro as your two midfielders in a counter attacking style, but the best counter attacking teams of the last 5 years have had a great passer to spray the ball to the runners elsewhere. Dortmund had Sahin/Gundogan, Madrid had Alonso and Tottenham had Bale. Dembele has the speed and the running ability, but not the vision. This season he has already blown several opportunities by missing the pass.

4. The best counter attacking teams often have a big striker they can hit early and then he can play in the runners. Chelsea had Drogba, Dortmund have Lewandowski and even Villa have Benteke. Spurs had motivated Adebayor. Who exactly are you going to hit early?

5. Your defence is not strong enough to invite pressure and hold out.

A counter attacking formation can be played by guys like Townsend, Dembele, Paulinho, Sandro, but not guys like Holtby, Sigurdson, Erikson etc. This is why the balance of the team is a mess.

There are options, but whatever way AVB goes he is going to have to isolate several of his signings. If he had a proper preseason and time to gel the team then maybe he could try experiments like moving Holtby/Sigurdson into central midfield and playing Dembele/Paulinho behind a striker for the counter. Putting Townsend on the left and seeing how well he could do there. However, he did not have a preaseason nor does he have time at the moment. His job depends on him getting top 4. This is why I said the squad is a mess, not only because it has holes, but half the squad likes to play one style of football and the half the squad likes to play another. Then if that i not bad enough half the squad has never played in the England.

 

[GHoddle]

Rubbish, he had 34 goals and 6 assists last season. That's exactly what we wanted in the summer and he was the right guy for Valencia because they played in a way that suited his skills. Maybe AVB/Baldini thought he could hold the ball up like Benteke but anyone who watched La Liga last season knew what we were getting. If the player turns out to be different than you expected, you have to swallow your pride and set up the team in a way that plays to their strengths instead of stick with a system that nullifies all their strengths.

I think we're actually getting at the same place from 2 directions. I don't doubt Soldado's quality. I just think we bought the wrong guy for the system that AVB wants to play. And I say we bought poorly because that deal was sorted early and surely when you target someone that early and shell out that kind of money, you need to be pretty certain that he is the guy for the league and the system you want to play. Whose fault was that? AVB's, Levy, Baldini? Or a combination? I don't claim to know, but that he has not settled in well is, I think, inarguable.

Exactly and I think the blame is not at AVB's door here, because I don't think he was making the signings for several reasons I have said before in this forum, but I could be wrong and have no inside information. If I am not wrong, AVB's title is also Head Coach?

Just to respond to both of you guys, I understand the argument that he isn't the right striker for the system AVB wants to play. That is undeniably true.

So yes someone messed up and targeted the wrong striker for AVB's system, but that doesn't matter now! What matters is altering your style and system to suit the players you have available.

If we wanted to play the style AVB is trying to create, we are missing more than just a powerful striker. We are also missing a midfielder like Modric or Moutinho who can control the tempo of the game. We are missing a left back (with Danny Rose out injured) who can overlap and we are also arguably missing a left forward (though I think Eriksen could play there effectively). So we don't have the players for the system. Thus, CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

We do have the players to play quick, counterattacking football. Except against United, we have rarely transitioned quickly from defense to attack and caught opponents off guard. We need more opportunities like the one against United where Paulinho sent Soldado through on goal. It would take a few alterations like dropping the defensive line deeper, but it wouldn't be that difficult a transition since it is what most of our players are used to already.

 

[GHoddle]

1. Erikson and Sigurdson are not good on the left. Sigurdson can do a job, but to really shine there he needs a full back to overlap and give him space. As it stand they both lack pace and if you play one of them on the left, it's easy to shut down. The full back stops them cutting in and relies on his own pace to cover if they go down the line.

2. You claim you should play a counter attacking game, but you neglect that this does not suit half your players. Holtby and Sigurdson, both came to prominence and earnt their big moves by playing in possession based teams: Schalke and Swansea. Nothing I have seen from them leads me to believe they would be at their best in a counter attacking team. The same goes for Erikson, whose big weakness is his physicality. I have not seen much of Lamela, but from what I have seen he does not suit a counter attacking game either and nor does Soldaldo.

3. You said you want to play Dembele and Sandro as your two midfielders in a counter attacking style, but the best counter attacking teams of the last 5 years have had a great passer to spray the ball to the runners elsewhere. Dortmund had Sahin/Gundogan, Madrid had Alonso and Tottenham had Bale. Dembele has the speed and the running ability, but not the vision. This season he has already blown several opportunities by missing the pass.

4. The best counter attacking teams often have a big striker they can hit early and then he can play in the runners. Chelsea had Drogba, Dortmund have Lewandowski and even Villa have Benteke. Spurs had motivated Adebayor. Who exactly are you going to hit early?

5. Your defence is not strong enough to invite pressure and hold out.

A counter attacking formation can be played by guys like Townsend, Dembele, Paulinho, Sandro, but not guys like Holtby, Sigurdson, Erikson etc. This is why the balance of the team is a mess.

There are options, but whatever way AVB goes he is going to have to isolate several of his signings. If he had a proper preseason and time to gel the team then maybe he could try experiments like moving Holtby/Sigurdson into central midfield and playing Dembele/Paulinho behind a striker for the counter. Putting Townsend on the left and seeing how well he could do there. However, he did not have a preaseason nor does he have time at the moment. His job depends on him getting top 4. This is why I said the squad is a mess, not only because it has holes, but half the squad likes to play one style of football and the half the squad likes to play another. Then if that i not bad enough half the squad has never played in the England.

1.) Disagree about Eriksen, I'd be interested to see how he could do on the left.

2.) Video of Holtby's goals and assists for Schalke in 2012/13: <a class="postlink" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73PK27u47bU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73PK27u47bU</a>. Almost all of his good work comes on the counterattack. I would dispute that Schalke were a possession-oriented team in any case. And in Sigurdsson's case, you have to question why he was able to shine at Swansea under Rodgers but not at Tottenham.

3.) Chelsea last season when Benitez got them playing well finally? They didn't have a passer from deep, they had a more Dembele type player in Ramires in the midfield pivot. And imo Dembele does have the passing ability when there is space in front of him. But it's far more difficult to thread a pass through two banks of 4 or 5 players than it is if you manage to transition quickly from defense into attack and catch the opponent off guard. That point applies to Holtby as well.

4.) Lewandowski is a totally different type of striker to Drogba or Benteke though. Also what about Madrid/Napoli with Higuain? Liverpool/Chelsea with Torres. United counterattacked effectively with Hernandez as the striker two seasons ago. You could include Valencia as well who are a counterattacking team and utilized Soldado very effectively.

5.) Disagree, our defense isn't good enough to play a high line and not be caught out (at least when Dawson is part of it), but we do have 3 very good central defenders and a work class (imo) GK, plus and improving Walker and Rose to return. I do think we need to try to find a better left back though - Ricardo Rodriguez at Wolfsburg would be my choice).

 

[Chipmeister]

AVB has been under pressure from the press given recent performances and their table position.
Strange how Moyes carries on without that pressure, he is now 2 points behind the under threat AVB in 9th position, It really is a joke the way the press influence clubs,fans and people's careers. Scum bags