The Tottenham Thread 13/14 part 3.

[gooner2]

I think we're actually getting at the same place from 2 directions. I don't doubt Soldado's quality. I just think we bought the wrong guy for the system that AVB wants to play. And I say we bought poorly because that deal was sorted early and surely when you target someone that early and shell out that kind of money, you need to be pretty certain that he is the guy for the league and the system you want to play. Whose fault was that? AVB's, Levy, Baldini? Or a combination? I don't claim to know, but that he has not settled in well is, I think, inarguable.

Exactly and I think the blame is not at AVB's door here, because I don't think he was making the signings for several reasons I have said before in this forum, but I could be wrong and have no inside information. If I am not wrong, AVB's title is also Head Coach?

Just to respond to both of you guys, I understand the argument that he isn't the right striker for the system AVB wants to play. That is undeniably true.

So yes someone messed up and targeted the wrong striker for AVB's system, but that doesn't matter now! What matters is altering your style and system to suit the players you have available.

If we wanted to play the style AVB is trying to create, we are missing more than just a powerful striker. We are also missing a midfielder like Modric or Moutinho who can control the tempo of the game. We are missing a left back (with Danny Rose out injured) who can overlap and we are also arguably missing a left forward (though I think Eriksen could play there effectively). So we don't have the players for the system. Thus, CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

We do have the players to play quick, counterattacking football. Except against United, we have rarely transitioned quickly from defense to attack and caught opponents off guard. We need more opportunities like the one against United where Paulinho sent Soldado through on goal. It would take a few alterations like dropping the defensive line deeper, but it wouldn't be that difficult a transition since it is what most of our players are used to already.

You still in the hunt for top four and i think in end you and united will end up fighting it out for 4th. Both of you have better squads then everton and liverpool which will tell over the whole season.

You have a top midfield but your defence and options up front are poor. I be suprised if you don,t buy a top defender in jan and a good striker like a benitke.

You need to change the system as you don,t have a playmaker bar erkinson that can play that well. You need play both lennon and townsend more often together as often you lack width in your play. Reason you only scored 13 goals in 14 games if you have been far to narrow. You need to change your style to be varied.

 

[more lazy than useless]

You still in the hunt for top four and i think in end you and united will end up fighting it out for 4th. Both of you have better squads then everton and liverpool which will tell over the whole season.

I would have to disagree with you there, I don't see Spurs making top 4 at all and certainly not because of squads.

I wouldn't argue too much with somebody telling me United will make 4th, even though (says it quietly!) I don't think they will. Rooney and RVP could drag them to 4th somehow, but after them the squad only has a couple of good enough players. Let's leave the manager out of it for now!
Liverpool would be similar, but I think they possibly have a better squad overall than United and I think they have every chance to finish above United.

Everton, even though they don't have the star players of United and Liverpool, look a far better team overall. They have good enough players in all positions, have almost all played together for a while, and seem to be cohesive. That's in direct contrast to Spurs, who may have the better players on paper.

Everton are like a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces have already been put together to make a pretty picture, whereas Spurs are more like somebody has tipped the pieces out of the box and is still sorting them, even though the picture on the box will eventually be far nicer.

At the moment I would say Everton are favourites for 4th, then Liverpool, then United. Unfortunately for Spurs, if they don't start getting their act together I can see them looking more at finishing ahead of Newcastle and Southampton than United and Liverpool.

 

[gooner2]

You still in the hunt for top four and i think in end you and united will end up fighting it out for 4th. Both of you have better squads then everton and liverpool which will tell over the whole season.

I would have to disagree with you there, I don't see Spurs making top 4 at all and certainly not because of squads.

I wouldn't argue too much with somebody telling me United will make 4th, even though (says it quietly!) I don't think they will. Rooney and RVP could drag them to 4th somehow, but after them the squad only has a couple of good enough players. Let's leave the manager out of it for now!
Liverpool would be similar, but I think they possibly have a better squad overall than United and I think they have every chance to finish above United.

Everton, even though they don't have the star players of United and Liverpool, look a far better team overall. They have good enough players in all positions, have almost all played together for a while, and seem to be cohesive. That's in direct contrast to Spurs, who may have the better players on paper.

Everton are like a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces have already been put together to make a pretty picture, whereas Spurs are more like somebody has tipped the pieces out of the box and is still sorting them, even though the picture on the box will eventually be far nicer.

At the moment I would say Everton are favourites for 4th, then Liverpool, then United. Unfortunately for Spurs, if they don't start getting their act together I can see them looking more at finishing ahead of Newcastle and Southampton than United and Liverpool.

Think spurs have better squad then everton mate and that might tell. I don,t think everton have squad depth and neither do liverpool. What would happen to everton and liverpool if they key strikers are out. That be in mess. whether even united however badly they play can bring in javier up front and wellbeck can score goals.

Still think united will be 4th, with spurs 5th, everton 6th and liverpool 7th. United have mental edge over these teams and as we shown last two season expeirence of getting into top four shows.

 

[more lazy than useless]

Think spurs have better squad then everton mate and that might tell.
Not particularly arguing with you there, but I think Everton are playing like a well oiled machine and Spurs are like a box of parts.


I don,t think everton have squad depth and neither do liverpool. What would happen to everton and liverpool if they key strikers are out.
Fair point, especially for Everton. However......

whether even united however badly they play can bring in javier up front and wellbeck can score goals.
Hernandez may be a descent enough striker but even the United fans are starting to turn on Danny 'goal drought' Wellbeck'. And that still doesn't make up for the rest of the squad.

United have mental edge over these teams and as we shown last two season expeirence of getting into top four shows.
I think United's 'mental edge' left in May and turned to writing books!

Still think united will be 4th, with spurs 5th, everton 6th and liverpool 7th.
Its certainly going to be interesting finding out, and debating it in the meantime.

 

[gooner2]

Think spurs have better squad then everton mate and that might tell.
Not particularly arguing with you there, but I think Everton are playing like a well oiled machine and Spurs are like a box of parts.


That is true but if villa boas gets his act together and works out his best team and play with more width over course of season should finish ahead of everton really.

I don,t think everton have squad depth and neither do liverpool. What would happen to everton and liverpool if they key strikers are out.
Fair point, especially for Everton. However......

I think both have a issue as without their strikers are doubt either be in the race for the top four this year.

whether even united however badly they play can bring in javier up front and wellbeck can score goals.
Hernandez may be a descent enough striker but even the United fans are starting to turn on Danny 'goal drought' Wellbeck'. And that still doesn't make up for the rest of the squad.

Fair point and their squad still weak but they still have goals in them as showed in leverkusen from likes of valencea and others. Point is both wellbeck and hernadez are not amazing but they can score enough to help out united when no rooney or rvp. Everton and liverpool don,t have that
United have mental edge over these teams and as we shown last two season expeirence of getting into top four shows.
I think United's 'mental edge' left in May and turned to writing books!

Not sure i agree. Yes fergie a big miss in terms of them contending for the title but even with a average manager out of his depth really they have enough experience and winners to get top four.

Still think united will be 4th, with spurs 5th, everton 6th and liverpool 7th.
Its certainly going to be interesting finding out, and debating it in the meantime.

gooner2 wrote: agree with that and it make for intresting premier league this year.

 

[supercrystal7]

1.) Disagree about Eriksen, I'd be interested to see how he could do on the left.

2.) Video of Holtby's goals and assists for Schalke in 2012/13: <a class="postlink" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73PK27u47bU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73PK27u47bU</a>. Almost all of his good work comes on the counterattack. I would dispute that Schalke were a possession-oriented team in any case. And in Sigurdsson's case, you have to question why he was able to shine at Swansea under Rodgers but not at Tottenham.

3.) Chelsea last season when Benitez got them playing well finally? They didn't have a passer from deep, they had a more Dembele type player in Ramires in the midfield pivot. And imo Dembele does have the passing ability when there is space in front of him. But it's far more difficult to thread a pass through two banks of 4 or 5 players than it is if you manage to transition quickly from defense into attack and catch the opponent off guard. That point applies to Holtby as well.

4.) Lewandowski is a totally different type of striker to Drogba or Benteke though. Also what about Madrid/Napoli with Higuain? Liverpool/Chelsea with Torres. United counterattacked effectively with Hernandez as the striker two seasons ago. You could include Valencia as well who are a counterattacking team and utilized Soldado very effectively.

5.) Disagree, our defense isn't good enough to play a high line and not be caught out (at least when Dawson is part of it), but we do have 3 very good central defenders and a work class (imo) GK, plus and improving Walker and Rose to return. I do think we need to try to find a better left back though - Ricardo Rodriguez at Wolfsburg would be my choice).

1. Erikson lacks pace and as I said would need an attacking full back for it to work, which you don't have. It's hard enough adjusting to a new league without a new position. We have to agree to disagree, because I don't think he can play there.

2. Will watch the videos when I get home, but I am sure I will find more highlights of Holtby attacking when Schalke are on the front foot. Calling Schalke a possession based team may be a bit strong, but they try and dominate matches on the front foot. Sigurdson 'shining' was relative to Swansea still finishing in the bottom half. It seems you want AVB to be a miracle worker. On one hand you want him to play a counter attacking game and the other hand to make players that excel in a possession based game fit into the system. As I said before that's the problem he has.

3. Lampard, Mikel and especially Luiz are much better than Dembele on the ball. Dembele would be comparable to Ramires, but Sandro (though a fantastic player) does not have the range of passing us the other three. Again we have to disagree on Dembele, because he wastes counter attacks with his lack of vision on a regular bases. Even against United there were a couple of times he could have played in Lennon, but was too slow to see it. It's not just when the the other team has parked the bus.

4. Lewandowski is one of the finest players at holding the ball up in the world. He is incredibly physically strong and is brilliant at playing other players in. I am not sure if you have seen much of him to even doubt this. Mourinho at Madrid brought in Adebayor to fulfill this role temporarily and even now Madrid are looking for a old fashioned centre forward. In the case of Napoli they have started to move away from their counter attacking system under Benitez, because they no longer have the likes of Lavezzi and Cavani. I did not watch Valencia last year to comment, but I doubt that Solado was part of a counter attacking team. In fact most teams play the same in Spain except for Atletico and couple others, who counter attack. Even if you don't have all the players for a perfect counter attacking team you can manage if you have a few in place. Tottenham are lacking in too many areas. Apart from your right wingers and Walker, you don't even have fantastic pace throughout the team.

5. Your defence is not great in general. The high line is risky, but has been working this season. Dropping deeper will probably lead to more goals being conceded. Dawson is not good enough, Kaboul has been injured for over a year and the new CB has just arrived.

Added to that when you become a big club smaller clubs no longer let you hit them on the counter. They are well prepared to park the bus, which is a problem that even Dortmund have found. Teams like us will defend deep even at home and hope to get a draw just like we did.

To even implement the changes you want, requires several players learning new positions, which they probably don't have the skill set to master. You want AVB to try this in the middle of a season you have to get fourth? Further more you are blaming him for not playing a tactic which by your own admission, he does not have the required players for and does not suit half your squad.

 

[alberto0292]

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/dec/05/tottenham-fan-group-atmosphere" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... atmosphere</a>

 

[cleavers]

Well we were pretty much piss poor tonight again despite winning. Two long range hit and pray shots saved us.

Do you reckon he would have gone if you'd lost ? A defeat to Fulham given their recent form would have been tough to get over. No matter now as you won, what about a bad result at Sunderland ?

 

[GHoddle]

Well we were pretty much piss poor tonight again despite winning. Two long range hit and pray shots saved us.

Do you reckon he would have gone if you'd lost ? A defeat to Fulham given their recent form would have been tough to get over. No matter now as you won, what about a bad result at Sunderland ?

My impression was that if he had lost that game he would have lost his job. He's given himself some breathing room now though.

 

[GHoddle]

1. Erikson lacks pace and as I said would need an attacking full back for it to work, which you don't have. It's hard enough adjusting to a new league without a new position. We have to agree to disagree, because I don't think he can play there.

2. Will watch the videos when I get home, but I am sure I will find more highlights of Holtby attacking when Schalke are on the front foot. Calling Schalke a possession based team may be a bit strong, but they try and dominate matches on the front foot. Sigurdson 'shining' was relative to Swansea still finishing in the bottom half. It seems you want AVB to be a miracle worker. On one hand you want him to play a counter attacking game and the other hand to make players that excel in a possession based game fit into the system. As I said before that's the problem he has.

3. Lampard, Mikel and especially Luiz are much better than Dembele on the ball. Dembele would be comparable to Ramires, but Sandro (though a fantastic player) does not have the range of passing us the other three. Again we have to disagree on Dembele, because he wastes counter attacks with his lack of vision on a regular bases. Even against United there were a couple of times he could have played in Lennon, but was too slow to see it. It's not just when the the other team has parked the bus.

4. Lewandowski is one of the finest players at holding the ball up in the world. He is incredibly physically strong and is brilliant at playing other players in. I am not sure if you have seen much of him to even doubt this. Mourinho at Madrid brought in Adebayor to fulfill this role temporarily and even now Madrid are looking for a old fashioned centre forward. In the case of Napoli they have started to move away from their counter attacking system under Benitez, because they no longer have the likes of Lavezzi and Cavani. I did not watch Valencia last year to comment, but I doubt that Solado was part of a counter attacking team. In fact most teams play the same in Spain except for Atletico and couple others, who counter attack. Even if you don't have all the players for a perfect counter attacking team you can manage if you have a few in place. Tottenham are lacking in too many areas. Apart from your right wingers and Walker, you don't even have fantastic pace throughout the team.

5. Your defence is not great in general. The high line is risky, but has been working this season. Dropping deeper will probably lead to more goals being conceded. Dawson is not good enough, Kaboul has been injured for over a year and the new CB has just arrived.

Added to that when you become a big club smaller clubs no longer let you hit them on the counter. They are well prepared to park the bus, which is a problem that even Dortmund have found. Teams like us will defend deep even at home and hope to get a draw just like we did.

To even implement the changes you want, requires several players learning new positions, which they probably don't have the skill set to master. You want AVB to try this in the middle of a season you have to get fourth? Further more you are blaming him for not playing a tactic which by your own admission, he does not have the required players for and does not suit half your squad.

1.) Eriksen doesn't have the pace of a typical winger (Lennon, Bale, Walcott, etc) but he's not slow. He's much quicker than Sigurdsson who frequently plays there anyway.

2.) No I don't expect Sigurdsson to play well in a counterattacking team but there's no denying that he hasn't looked as good for us as he did for Swansea. I would probably sell him tbh.

3.) You are using Lampard and Mikel as examples of good passers of the ball from deep. I just disagree entirely. We'll leave it at that.

4.) I didn't say that Lewandowski can't hold the ball up, I said he is a completely player than Drogba or Benteke.

5.) Disagree, Chiriches has done excellently since his arrival. Vertonghen is a top class CB as is Kaboul imo. The only one of our CB's I don't rate is Dawson. Walker is now getting back to his best imo, and Rose was doing well before his injury, and imo Lloris is the best keeper in the league. So yes I do think we have a very good defense.

The high line is part of our attack, not our defense. Defending deep is far easier than defending high up the pitch, it is ridiculous to say otherwise. That's why pretty much every team that wants to hold on to a result will drop deep and get more players behind the ball.

In any case I don't think this argument will go anywhere. I think we have the players to play on the counterattack, you don't. I remember us having a similar lengthy argument in the summer regarding whether Arsenal were a better team than Schalke and Milan - I would imagine that your opinion is probably different now. So perhaps time will tell in this case as well, for or against one of us.