Things we wont say about Race that are true!!

[Damocles]

However, it totally ignores the reality of the situation in the country today. People do want to be with their own group ( I use the word to avoid yet another lecture on the issue of race). I never said that they exclusively want to do this. Philips made the point that there is no issue with associating with other cultures just that they prefer to live with people similar to themselves. What's wrong with that? You also sneered at my comment about poor white people being new black. You are correct that the positions of power are held by white people in the main - they are the same metropolitan elite that won't recognise the problem. I am not talking about them, I am referring to the average guy in the street who Does feel disenfranchised.

Please join in the debate, that's what the forum is for. It's not for you to use up bandwidth lecturing us poor stupid mortals

That's not how bandwidth works.....but anyway.

Position of power aren't held by white people in the main. They are held by white people almost exclusively and have been for thousands of years. There's a bit of a difference between those two things. The Cabinet has existed in the UK since around the 1600s though in its modern form since 1916, and have generally around 20 people selected in them. Let's call that 25 elections or 500 Cabinet ministers not including resignations and deaths nor the increased numbers during the War. Do you know how many Cabinet ministers we have had since the 1600s that are non-white? Not black, non-white. Six. Out of at least 500. From all walks of social background I might add; Eton educated people to kids from working class homes have been in the Cabinet, no problem there at all. Just the colour thing. "In the main" doesn't really cover it does it?

I sneered at your comment about poor white people being the new black because I have absolutely no idea what it even means. What is "the old black" and how does it differ from "the new black"?

I'd also like to register my amusement at the notion that "people are scared to talk about race". Just on Bluemoon we have about 10 threads a month on it. People talk about these types of things in pubs all of the time, and political parties such as the BNP can't seemingly shut up about it. There's a lovely irony of a nationally broadcast prime time program stating that the country doesn't like to talk about race then talking about race.

 

[stony]

You are over thinking and complicating it Damocles - your facts are correct but the simple truth is as RtR and the programme was trying to say which is why you have areas which are mainly occupied by Somali's or Asians or White British. A family moving here from Pakistan would want to live near the people they know that already live here, when their children leave home they would (generally) want to live near their families and friends so stay more or less in the same area. No one makes people do this they just prefer to do it.

No, you lot are underthinking it. Let's forget the whole race thing for a minute and just focus on the idea of migration.

Were you raised in Manchester? What about your partner? Both parents?

I wasn't raised where I am living now. My next door neighbour is a scouser. The other side is from Dorset originally. On Mum's side I have 7 aunts and 5 uncles. None of them live in Manchester, nor do their families. Do all of your relatives live in the same place that they grew up in?

Fortunately migration has been studied at length so we don't just have to guess. People emigrate mostly for economic reasons - they go where there are jobs and a better standard of living available. "Living with their own race" is not a reason people move around the country nor the world.

Funny you should mention migration. I was born less than two miles away from where my family name originated. Most of my dad's family, and he had 4 brothers and 4 sisters, all still live within a few miles of where the family names originated.

 

[Ronnie the Rep]

However, it totally ignores the reality of the situation in the country today. People do want to be with their own group ( I use the word to avoid yet another lecture on the issue of race). I never said that they exclusively want to do this. Philips made the point that there is no issue with associating with other cultures just that they prefer to live with people similar to themselves. What's wrong with that? You also sneered at my comment about poor white people being new black. You are correct that the positions of power are held by white people in the main - they are the same metropolitan elite that won't recognise the problem. I am not talking about them, I am referring to the average guy in the street who Does feel disenfranchised.

Please join in the debate, that's what the forum is for. It's not for you to use up bandwidth lecturing us poor stupid mortals

That's not how bandwidth works.....but anyway.

Position of power aren't held by white people in the main. They are held by white people almost exclusively and have been for thousands of years. There's a bit of a difference between those two things. The Cabinet has existed in the UK since around the 1600s though in its modern form since 1916, and have generally around 20 people selected in them. Let's call that 25 elections or 500 Cabinet ministers not including resignations and deaths nor the increased numbers during the War. Do you know how many Cabinet ministers we have had since the 1600s that are non-white? Not black, non-white. Six. Out of at least 500. From all walks of social background I might add; Eton educated people to kids from working class homes have been in the Cabinet, no problem there at all. Just the colour thing. "In the main" doesn't really cover it does it?

I sneered at your comment about poor white people being the new black because I have absolutely no idea what it even means. What is "the old black" and how does it differ from "the new black"?

I'd also like to register my amusement at the notion that "people are scared to talk about race". Just on Bluemoon we have about 10 threads a month on it. People talk about these types of things in pubs all of the time, and political parties such as the BNP can't seemingly shut up about it. There's a lovely irony of a nationally broadcast prime time program stating that the country doesn't like to talk about race then talking about race.

Thanks for another history lesson pointing out my poor choice of words. Effectively every position of power is and always has been held by white people. Maybe that's not as surprising as it sounds when you look at the relative numbers of blacks in the population

Please don't pretend not to understand my point about poor white people, you are better than that and rather than just trying to score points and show how clever you are why not propose a solution?

Finally, we may discuss such things (or try to) here on BM but they are not as openly discussed in public except maybe with our very close friends and family

 

[VinniesLad]

I thought the program started off quite well but tailed off disappointingly and was a lost opportunity given the very strong title of the program. A lot of what was said was what people have known for years , that people like living with people similar to themselves. That doesn't just mean in skin colour but race , education , religion , wealth etc.

The statistics weren't surprising at all.

To me the most shocking things is what happened in Rotherham and numerous other cities amongst the Pakistani community grooming young white girls. The shocking thing to me is it is known , it is proven statistically yet what has been or will be done about it ? Nothing. The fact remains that people are still too scared to confront the issue. For all the people that have been imprisoned there will be others that have the same attitude.

 

[Tuearts right boot]

Three quarters of black murders are perpetrated by blacks is quite a heavy one.

It's estimated that 80% of people murdered knew their killer.

Well, they should've spoken up about it.

I'm sure they would have done but they weren't dead then.

 

[Damocles]

Thanks for another history lesson pointing out my poor choice of words. Effectively every position of power is and always has been held by white people. Maybe that's not as surprising as it sounds when you look at the relative numbers of blacks in the population

13% of the country is non-white.

6 Cabinet members in 100 years.

Please don't pretend not to understand my point about poor white people, you are better than that and rather than just trying to score points and show how clever you are why not propose a solution?

You might think that this is some bizarre nudge winkathon but I have literally no idea at all what "poor whites are the new blacks" means. I'm no kidding the entire sentence doesn't make any sense at all. I don't know what an old black is, nor a new black, not how being white and poor is somehow different between being black and poor. People are just poor, I don't know how the pigmentation of their skin is somehow relevant to the discussion.

Why don't you actually try to explain what this means?

 

[Mike D]

On at 9 on channel 4. I reckon this might stoke some controversy by the time its finished which is probably the point. I will be watching with my skin head and can of fosters

Not much in it for me bit of a damp squid if I'm being honest.

 

[Ronnie the Rep]

Thanks for another history lesson pointing out my poor choice of words. Effectively every position of power is and always has been held by white people. Maybe that's not as surprising as it sounds when you look at the relative numbers of blacks in the population

13% of the country is non-white.

6 Cabinet members in 100 years.

Please don't pretend not to understand my point about poor white people, you are better than that and rather than just trying to score points and show how clever you are why not propose a solution?

You might think that this is some bizarre nudge winkathon but I have literally no idea at all what "poor whites are the new blacks" means. I'm no kidding the entire sentence doesn't make any sense at all. I don't know what an old black is, nor a new black, not how being white and poor is somehow different between being black and poor. People are just poor, I don't know how the pigmentation of their skin is somehow relevant to the discussion.

Why don't you actually try to explain what this means?

I am genuinely disappointed. I have always admired your neutral stance on stuff and your rational explanations but in this case you are using statistics in a deliberately misleading way. Of course it looks bad when there are 13% non whites and only 6 cabinet members in the last 100 years but the 13% is relatively new as before the major influx in the 1950's there were a fraction of the amount that there are now. Either way, you are just arguing semantics when I am agreeing with you in principle that non whites are poorly represented in positions of power.

On the second point, just to be clear, I am referring to the idea that in the past, black people felt under represented, sidelined for help, attacked by most other sections of society etc, etc. That position is now taken by the working class white people (sometimes called white van man by politicians)

I hope this is clear

 

[Damocles]

I am genuinely disappointed. I have always admired your neutral stance on stuff and your rational explanations but in this case you are using statistics in a deliberately misleading way. Of course it looks bad when there are 13% non whites and only 6 cabinet members in the last 100 years but the 13% is relatively new as before the major influx in the 1950's there were a fraction of the amount that there are now. Either way, you are just arguing semantics when I am agreeing with you in principle that non whites are poorly represented in positions of power.

On the second point, just to be clear, I am referring to the idea that in the past, black people felt under represented, sidelined for help, attacked by most other sections of society etc, etc. That position is now taken by the working class white people (sometimes called white van man by politicians)

I hope this is clear

Perfectly clear and reasonable. Switch the above to 6 since 1950s and the point still stands perfectly well.

The issue though is that working class black people and working class Asians also feel heavily under-represented, sidelined for help, attacked by most other sections of society, etc too. Think of the incredible amount of shit that something like Islam gets through the media and social media and compare it to the stick working class white people take. It's not even on the same scale.

The problem is that working classes, no matter what their race or religion, feel disenfranchised by a system built for the middle classes and by the middle classes. We live in a democracy of mediocrity and even worse we have people who actually vote for the parties that enable their disenfranchisement. I keep banging on about this on here but some people have turned politics into a football team where everybody "on the right does this" or all Labour voters do that" and it is both ridiculous and hurts everybody including themselves.

It's bad reasoning. People are attaching things to colour when it's to do with class. Again I'd like to point out that the pigmentation of somebody's skin tells you absolutely nothing about a person any more than their eye colour.

 

[101toMR]

The problem is that working classes, no matter what their race or religion, feel disenfranchised by a system built for the middle classes and by the middle classes. We live in a democracy of mediocrity and even worse we have people who actually vote for the parties that enable their disenfranchisement. I keep banging on about this on here but some people have turned politics into a football team where everybody "on the right does this" or all Labour voters do that" and it is both ridiculous and hurts everybody including themselves.

There isn't a great deal wrong with anything you wrote there at all.
It's the poor that get it in the neck whatever race-culture they come from and it's a crying shame that everyone can't pull together on that issue.