Time to put sentiment aside, back-line needs an overhaul.

[The Engineer]

All we need to do is sign Leighton Baines in January, Demicheles can operate as back up go Vinny and Nastasic until the summer. But what we do needto do is sign a quality holding midfielder in the winter window, if we have a world class operator sitting in the way NDJ did but also who can distribute the ball better then I tell u now we won't concede many goals and Joe Hart won't mess up much either!! It's all about protection. An open midfield allows way too many chances and put far too much pressure in the backline!! Come summer time we can buy a top defender if it hasn't worked out!

 

[uwe rosler 28]

Defence can not really b blamed for yesterday it was a foul on milner apart from that they had nothing to do

 

[Mr HJ]

Defence can not really b blamed for yesterday it was a foul on milner apart from that they had nothing to do

In many ways you're right "uwerosler 28" but sometimes what really makes a difference when trying to breakdown a team that defends so deep is to have your defenders play with more pace - both fullbacks were poor yesterday in my opinion as an attacking sense Alexander did get a couple of crosses in but more often looking he wasted possession by trying to run at the fullback and he does not have the pace for that. We have to play like we did against CSKA with intensity and that starts at the back. Fernandinho was a big miss as he often is the one who comes deep for the ball. Lescott in particular does not have the range of passing to put opposition on the back foot. I don't advocate the long ball but how many accurate switch of play passes can you remember? Me none! Even so you are correct that we lost to a goal that should never have been.

 

[Aytoun]

Putting aside all the comments regarding new partnerships or formations or tactics, the fundamental problem is with the players. These players are not nearly good enough, not for any Premiership team and especially not one trying to win 4 titles.
And they cost over £100 million to buy plus a shedful of wages every week.
Kolarov & Lescott give the distinct impression that the football pitch is like an alien planet where they have landed by accident. They then go on to play accordingly.
Garcia & Milner look as though they have been on a football field before but then play as though they haven`t. Neither of them yesterday, & recently, would struggle in a headless chicken competition.
The main worry is that this is not new. Most sensible people on here have seen & known that for ages. Why then do the management keep on picking them ?? We will continue to get more of Cardiff, Villa & Sunderland.
You cannot polish a turd.

 

[dasblues]

We are suffering from exactly the same issues that AVB encountered when he tried to change a tried and trusted system that worked perfectly for the players at his disposal. Chelsea had a water-tight defense which was used to defending the 18 yard box and hitting teams on the couter at pace, the full backs generally not ventruring beyond the half way line

He implemented a high line which requires pressure on the ball at all times, and players that can handle that, the team weren't willing to do this so the players rebelled and he reverted to what was seen before, the players lost respect for the manager and the rest his history....

So the moral of the story is that you need a high work ethic to implement the tactics that pellegrini wants to, either he can get the players on side to this or he cant...his job depends on it

The problem is I dont think we have the personel to implement such a system straight away especially with the formation that he wants to play.....

The problems as I see it are:

Lescott, so nervous on the ball when under pressure, his default movment when attacked is to retreat to the sanctity of the 18 yard box and defend from there. I think he has tried to look more of a ball playing centre half in the past couple of games where he has tried a couple of 30 yard balls...perhaps to impress the manager....you cant teach an old dog new tricks...get rid

Kolarov, cant defend, slow on the turn, slow to get back into postion, clumsy in the tackle....need I go on.....get rid

Hart, very poor decision making when asked to play the sweeper keeper role that is essential for this system, you need a keeper who knows when to come from his box to snuff out any danger.....witness the Aston Villa / Chelsea games, but on numerous occasions he has got this wrong but hasn't cost us a goal.....needs to be coached more effectively , bringing in his England coach wont help either as both teams employ massively different tactics

Richards, positionally very poor unless he's had a rocket up his arse and pulls his socks up. We have only seen this for 6 months of Mancini's reign where he was constantly baraking him from the touchline to get back into postion....can he be persueded to put the effort in for the new manager......not worth what he is asking for in wages for what is a reserve right back....get rid

Yaya, midfielders with agility can just bypass his initial press, very slow on the turn when running back to his own goal.....having said that he is a great player if utilised as either a very deep lying midfield player or as a box to box player who gets forward.....either of these roles require him to play in a three man midfield...ala Bara.....

Dzeko, needs to be the focal point of the attack and the system set up around him, will be a great player for another team who do this, we cant have this type of luxury player given the intense pressing needed for the system....get rid

I would see a slight change of shape as the solution to this, trying the mimic the barca/dutch method of 4-3-3


Hart

Zaba/? Kompany/Demechelis Nastasic/Vertonghen? Clichy/?

Fernandinho

Yaya Nasri

Navas Silva
Aguero

So we need a back up right back and a first chice/back up left back

 

[grahamgor]

What happened at sunderland put the defensive problems right in the spotlight. This time it wasn't defensive lapses which cost the goal-the main reason was dean's failure to spot bardsley's foul on Milner- but the inability of certain defenders to contribute to attack. The match slowly developed into a siege on the Sunderland goal with their defenders in '' they shall not pass '' mode, urged on by a crowd desperate to avoid relegation.
Had all ten outfielders made a contribution from the start, a breakthrough might've been achieved. But sadly Zaba didn't appear till 70 minutes. Till then, we were effectively carrying Micah Richards whose lack of positional awareness, slowness of thought and wavering concentration made him completely unsuitable for the task in hand. And, though Joleonn Lescott made no mistakes, his lack of skill on the ball precludes him from joining attacks other than setpieces.Demichelis, by contrast, was bringing the ball calmly out of defence in Italian libero style. After Zaba came on, attacks developed down the right via Demich, Zaba and Jesus Navas. Pellegrini was quite right to drop Clichy because the penalty gaffe against CSKA was merely the culmination of a series of blunders which have been going on all season. He gave richards a chance-possibly thinking he could foil Sunderland by pressing Johnson. If that was the rationale, it no longer applied after they snatched their goal. Richards' weaknesses have been all too apparent, most of all against Bayern where he was totally out of his depth.
Whatever some think about Kolarov, he made no significant defensive errors and his efforts might well have brought at least an equalising goal-the cross which Kun headed wide and his own fiercely swerving shot which clipped the side netting before the end. It's not easy to overhaul in mid-season and we don't know yet what funds might be available but at least one top-class full back would be a great acquisition to make.

 

[Bpughh]

All we need to do is sign Leighton Baines in January, Demicheles can operate as back up go Vinny and Nastasic until the summer. But what we do needto do is sign a quality holding midfielder in the winter window, if we have a world class operator sitting in the way NDJ did but also who can distribute the ball better then I tell u now we won't concede many goals and Joe Hart won't mess up much either!! It's all about protection. An open midfield allows way too many chances and put far too much pressure in the backline!! Come summer time we can buy a top defender if it hasn't worked out!

Completely agree, except along w leighton baines, I think willy caballero is a must buy in january also. I see Joe Hart as our long term #1 but he's no where near where he needs to be right now. Caballero unlike Pantillimon, would scare the shit out of Hart and force him to step up his game if he ever wants to see the field again. Caballero is top class IMO, he doesn't ever lose focus and is exactly the kind of competition we need for Hart to come back to his glory days.

The defensive mid thing worries me too, especially if we want to compete against teams like bayern, real, and barcelona. Pogba would be ideal but we might have to wait till summer to make that move. For January though, we do need someone, a veteran that can still bring it and could be eligible for Champions league... Finding that player might be a bit tricky though and the last thing we need to do is waste money on another player who isn't even good enough to be a squad player. i.e. javi garcia, rodwell, and sinclair... If it were me, I'd look at Bruno from villarreal or fernando from porto (even though he couldnt play CL)... It's a damn shame we got rid of NDJ though, he'd be perfect. We might be forced to recall barry from loan... though I don't think that'd help too much. I'd almost rather see Milner be converted into a holding mid bc for me, Barry's lost it and Milner is discipline enough to learn the position... probably a bit of stretch that one and shows just how desperate we are for an addition in that area.

Come summer time, I think it's time to say goodbye to clichy and kolorav (though if we get baines in january I can see one being shipped out then), lescott, rodwell, garcia, pantillimon (for me he's too young to be content with #2 and simply not good enough to ever be our trusted #1), and dzeko... not too mention barry and sinclair. Let's have them all replaced with fresh faces who will fit Pelligrini's style of play better bc whether he's in charge or not, seems like the barca boys upstairs are making the all-out-attack philosophy our own.

Summer dreams: Messi, pogba, mangala, reus or sharawwy (maybe both lol), a young LB like shaw but probably not shaw, unfortunately as I don't see him leaving anytime soon, and a young creative cam... ISCO? oh wait...

leaving us something like...

goalkeepers: hart,
defenders: micah, zab, vinny, nasty, demichiles, mangala, baines, (shaw-like) lb
midfielders: pogba, yaya, fernandinho, fernando, silva, nasri, reus, jesus navas
forwards: el sharawwy(or MESSI), jovetic, negredo, aguero

with boyata and guidetti out on loan

obviously the latter half of this post is a little bit unrealistic... but for fucks sake, we do need some changes.<br /><br />-- Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:38 pm --<br /><br />

All we need to do is sign Leighton Baines in January, Demicheles can operate as back up go Vinny and Nastasic until the summer. But what we do needto do is sign a quality holding midfielder in the winter window, if we have a world class operator sitting in the way NDJ did but also who can distribute the ball better then I tell u now we won't concede many goals and Joe Hart won't mess up much either!! It's all about protection. An open midfield allows way too many chances and put far too much pressure in the backline!! Come summer time we can buy a top defender if it hasn't worked out!

Completely agree, except along w leighton baines, I think willy caballero is a must buy in january also. I see Joe Hart as our long term #1 but he's no where near where he needs to be right now. Caballero unlike Pantillimon, would scare the shit out of Hart and force him to step up his game if he ever wants to see the field again. Caballero is top class IMO, he doesn't ever lose focus and is exactly the kind of competition we need for Hart to come back to his glory days.

The defensive mid thing worries me too, especially if we want to compete against teams like bayern, real, and barcelona. Pogba would be ideal but we might have to wait till summer to make that move. For January though, we do need someone, a veteran that can still bring it and could be eligible for Champions league... Finding that player might be a bit tricky though and the last thing we need to do is waste money on another player who isn't even good enough to be a squad player. i.e. javi garcia, rodwell, and sinclair... If it were me, I'd look at Bruno from villarreal or fernando from porto (even though he couldnt play CL)... It's a damn shame we got rid of NDJ though, he'd be perfect. We might be forced to recall barry from loan... though I don't think that'd help too much. I'd almost rather see Milner be converted into a holding mid bc for me, Barry's lost it and Milner is discipline enough to learn the position... probably a bit of stretch that one and just goes for showing how desperately I think we need a change in that area for the big games, at least. Bayern completely dominated us bc they played with 5 in the middle, we need a modified 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 option to go to

Come summer time, I think it's time to say goodbye to clichy and kolorav (though if we get baines in january I can see one being shipped out then), lescott, rodwell, garcia, pantillimon (for me he's too young to be content with #2 and simply not good enough to ever be our trusted #1), and dzeko... not too mention barry and sinclair. Let's have them all replaced with fresh faces who will fit Pelligrini's style of play better bc whether he's in charge or not, seems like the barca boys upstairs are making the all-out-attack philosophy our own.

Summer dreams: Messi, pogba, mangala, reus or sharawwy (maybe both lol), a young LB like shaw but probably not shaw, unfortunately as I don't see him leaving anytime soon, and a young creative cam... ISCO? oh wait...

leaving us something like...

goalkeepers: hart,
defenders: micah, zab, vinny, nasty, demichiles, mangala, baines, (shaw-like) lb
midfielders: pogba, yaya, fernandinho, fernando, silva, nasri, reus, jesus navas
forwards: el sharawwy(or MESSI), jovetic, negredo, aguero

with boyata and guidetti out on loan

obviously the latter half of this post is a little bit unrealistic... but for fucks sake, we do need some changes.

 

[kippaxblue76]

So we overhaul the back line and the keeper and then what? The defensive issues apparent since the Arsenal pre season friendly just disappear? Didn't we try this under Hughes? Conceding goals and making mistakes well get a new back 4 and keeper. Still conceding goals? Ok we didn't get the right back 4 so we will start again. Except we didn't. We got rid of Hughes and actually tried coaching the defensive unit and the team as a whole. Worked a fucking treat.

Lets try learning from past experience rather than ignoring it. At the very least it will be cheaper than shifting defensive units out en mass every other transfer window.

Mancini wanted to get rid of Kolarov, Lescott, Richards and Hart at some time or other. He wanted Begovic, Javi Martinez and Thiago Silva recently so spare me the bullshit.

Mancini set us up well but we failed to score as often as we should as consequence.

We have gone from Yin to Yang. We need somewhere in the middle but if we continue Yang we need a top back line. Simple really.

We failed to score as often as we should last season. The previous season we did fine. Last season we created chances but didn't stick them away as often as we should have. You can still have an excellent well marshalled defence with the team defending from the strikers down and still score shed loads of goals. This is not me being fanciful but pointing out that we did precisely this in the 11/12 season.

I am not saying that the team does not or should not evolve. Last season we upgraded Lescott to Nasty who more than deserved his first team place and I say this as a fan of Lescott. Equally Mancini was getting annoyed with Hart who he believed should concentrate on playing football and improving his game rather than listening to the hype. That he was looking to replace Hart and Pellers did it within 10 games has its own irony.

But this is not what you and others are advocating. What you are doing is lumping the poor start to the season on the 4 constantly rotating poor bastards at the back and having them shot. The problem is not just the players at the back. Its a system weakness. Its a coaching weakness (or philosophy if you prefer). Its a mentality weakness. Its about team shape and drills as a unit etc etc you know the things the players complained about as being 'boring' under Mancini.

We are no longer difficult to beat. I know this because we keep getting fucking beat and correcting it isn't as simple as replacing the 4 poor bastards at the back. Either Pellers reverts back to what we used to do well or he converts the team to a high line/high pressing/high energy whirlwind for 90+ mins of every game. At the moment we are stuck firmly in the middle of no mans land and getting shat on every other game.

And people wonder why we are 8th and have lost 4 fucking games by early November. Like its a fucking mystery.

I thought that was Pellegrini's style, Bayern/Dortmund style if you like but I am yet to see it for anything like a full match, we seem to do it in short spells but nothing like the Germans. Bayern destroyed us with the high pressing game.

 

[MC ID]

Yes it does but if the defense had done there job yesterday we still would of drawn 0-0 against a piss poor Sunderland side. It is our midfield that needs sorting out for me more than our defense. The defense just needs to be the bloody same for more than one match, and not involve Garcia.

 

[adr2.8i]

most great sides have a solid settled defense, but at the moment we seem to be way off being solid and strong. I dont think we have bad defenders, but Kompany is the only "great"defender we have in my opinion. I think teams look at our defense and see it as our weakness.

Dare i say it, but how i would long for us to have the Adams/Bould/Keown/Dixon/Winterburn or the Maldini/Baresi/Costacurta type of defense.

Most teams were mentally beaten before even walking on the pitch against these guys. Imagine how a striker felt knowing he was being marked by the guys mentioned above? he already knew the chances are he wouldnt get a sniff all game.

Imagine a striker today playing in front of his own crowd.....................dodgy away team MCFC turn up............................ Kompany is out injured........................ his eyes light up........he knows hes up against an out of form and a lacking in confidence back 4.................................hes gonna have a extra spring in his step knowing that the chances are someone in our defence will drop a clanger.

It pains me to it, but our defenders have no fear factor whatsoever. Take Vinnie out and we are slightly above average at best.

Hopefully our defensive issues will be addressed next summer.