Today's shooting in America thread

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Michigan school shooting: Parents of gunman charged with manslaughter

Authorities say the Michigan couple's son killed four students with his father's handgun.

www.bbc.co.uk

Jesus Christ...

This entire tragic episode could have been avoided by arming everyone - teachers and student's alike - with M16s. Please join the NRA in extending its "Thoughts and Prayers" to the victims.

Spoiler

The USA is so batshit crazy about gun ownership that the rather obvious irony in the paragraph above might unfortunately be mistaken for actual sentiment.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

There are millions of lawful gun owners just like me, who will never shoot their weapon in anger.

And I believe you. I trust YOU personally because I do know a bit about you.

But it begs the question . . . why should I?

Well, I should because human interactions are built on trust, right? I've made that argument many times before.

But here's the thing -- and I'll say it again: I may and do trust specific gunowners I know. But why doesn't the horror and the moral outrage about situations like the above come longest and loudest from the responsible gun owners themselves and perhaps their largest lobby (like it or not) rather than those without guns?

In practical terms, here on this thread, when a responsible gunowner starts bringing stories like this to our attention, expressing despair and outrage, I'll have more hope. But my expectation is those who lawfully and responsibly own will continue to spend 95% of the time talking about their own rights instead.

And as we've discussed, a gun is on the end of the bell curve of social utility because it has one, and only one, utilitarian purpose: to harm. As such, everything about them should be subject to the very strictest of all possible consumer good regulatory standards. But what's more important, responsible gunowners should be lobbying for those standards themselves.

"It's the stupid and the criminal who cause all the problems" isn't good enough for me. I would argue you're in a better position to effect change than the rest of us. And I might argue you have a moral responsibility too. But I am guessing you aren't going to agree with me.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

That’s fine, and you’ll find plenty of confirmation bias for your position here.

It’s just funny how people see “Chicago” in my username and not only think they know me, but know more about the issue than me. Funny juxtaposition!

I have 3 firearms, one a holdover from a previous “job” that I use at the range. The other 2 are home & concealed carry weapons.

Illinois, where I live, has some of the most conservative gun laws in the country and only “opened up” their laws when forced by a recent Second Amendment lawsuit. We have no Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground laws, only personal survival. So, if someone broke into my house to nick the TV, I have no right to shoot them over the burglary. I only have the right to defend myself and my family from fear of death or serious injury.

Therefore, my family knows that if we are ever broken into, we FIRST dial 911, NO-ONE goes downstairs, and we all assemble in my son’s bedroom. From there, we assess the situation.

If anyone comes upstairs and attempts to enter the bedroom, they die. If they stay downstairs and nick whatever they think they can sell, then hopefully the Police will get them! If not, we have insurance.

I live about 1 mile from the Police Station and I’m sure they’re always looking to have some fun with burglars!

None of that, IMHO, sounds unreasonable to me. But, in a country where gun crime is prevalent, and even “non-gun crime” often involves someone carrying, then I feel that, given my training and regular practice, it is a prudent course of action.

There are millions of lawful gun owners just like me, who will never shoot their weapon in anger. As always, it’s the stupid and criminal that cause all the problems.

Can't you invest in a burglar alarm or move to a gated community rather than plan for the unlikely event that you need to go full John McClane in your tighty whities?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Can't you invest in a burglar alarm or move to a gated community rather than plan for the unlikely event that you need to go full John McClane in your tighty whities?

I live in a nice community in which my wife grew up. Sadly, the bad guys know it’s a nice, middle class community, too.

Why do you care that I have a gun and am a responsible gun owner?

As for the “Die Hard” reference…
Well, yippekayyay motherfucker!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

And I believe you. I trust YOU personally because I do know a bit about you.

But it begs the question . . . why should I?

Well, I should because human interactions are built on trust, right? I've made that argument many times before.

But here's the thing -- and I'll say it again: I may and do trust specific gunowners I know. But why doesn't the horror and the moral outrage about situations like the above come longest and loudest from the responsible gun owners themselves and perhaps their largest lobby (like it or not) rather than those without guns?

In practical terms, here on this thread, when a responsible gunowner starts bringing stories like this to our attention, expressing despair and outrage, I'll have more hope. But my expectation is those who lawfully and responsibly own will continue to spend 95% of the time talking about their own rights instead.

And as we've discussed, a gun is on the end of the bell curve of social utility because it has one, and only one, utilitarian purpose: to harm. As such, everything about them should be subject to the very strictest of all possible consumer good regulatory standards. But what's more important, responsible gunowners should be lobbying for those standards themselves.

"It's the stupid and the criminal who cause all the problems" isn't good enough for me. I would argue you're in a better position to effect change than the rest of us. And I might argue you have a moral responsibility too. But I am guessing you aren't going to agree with me.

I vote BLUE. I’m a big fan of law and order. But, when a guy on trial for 3 murders has the weapons charge dropped because the Judge says the statute is “fuzzy,” then you’re directing your ire at the wrong person.

I have paid lots of money and taken plenty of my own personal time to become a marksman (Federal), legally own and conceal carry weapons, and can assure you I’m not the enemy.

Get rid of the cause and you lose the effect. I’d be happy to give up my guns if everyone would, but we both know that’s not happening, right? Therein lies the problem.

Btw, I’m typing this passing thru SFO on Flt 2433 SFO-ORD! You on it???

I just flew in on one of my 787 Qualification flights!

 

[Barcon]

I vote BLUE. I’m a big fan of law and order. But, when a guy on trial for 3 murders has the weapons charge dropped because the Judge says the statute is “fuzzy,” then you’re directing your ire at the wrong person.

I have paid lots of money and taken plenty of my own personal time to become a marksman (Federal), legally own and conceal carry weapons, and can assure you I’m not the enemy.

Get rid of the cause and you lose the effect. I’d be happy to give up my guns if everyone would, but we both know that’s not happening, right? Therein lies the problem.

Btw, I’m typing this passing thru SFO on Flt 2433 SFO-ORD! You on it???

I just flew in on one of my 787 Qualification flights!

Eyes on the road please.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I live in a nice community in which my wife grew up. Sadly, the bad guys know it’s a nice, middle class community, too.

Why do you care that I have a gun and am a responsible gun owner?

As for the “Die Hard” reference…
Well, yippekayyay motherfucker!

I don't it's just weird how you have spent so much time game planning a home invasion. Probably usual amongst Americans but not for Brits.

There are better ways to secure your home or deter burglars from targeting it than a handgun in your bedside drawer.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Eyes on the road please.

Seat 11A ;-)

 

[idahoblues]

I vote BLUE. I’m a big fan of law and order. But, when a guy on trial for 3 murders has the weapons charge dropped because the Judge says the statute is “fuzzy,” then you’re directing your ire at the wrong person.

I have paid lots of money and taken plenty of my own personal time to become a marksman (Federal), legally own and conceal carry weapons, and can assure you I’m not the enemy.

Get rid of the cause and you lose the effect. I’d be happy to give up my guns if everyone would, but we both know that’s not happening, right? Therein lies the problem.

Btw, I’m typing this passing thru SFO on Flt 2433 SFO-ORD! You on it???

I just flew in on one of my 787 Qualification flights!

Head East a little and fly over Teton Valley, do a barrel roll in your 787

 

[idahoblues]

I don't it's just weird how you have spent so much time game planning a home invasion. Probably usual amongst Americans but not for Brits.

There are better ways to secure your home or deter burglars from targeting it than handgun in your bedside drawer.

Correct, a 12 gauge is way better