Tosin Adarabioyo

[Neville Kneville]

If they can't hack in in the lower leagues or at least learn to, how do you expect them to hack it in the Premier League? Genuine question. These lads have the talent already, they don't go out on loan to progress technically, they go out for experience.

I say it time and time again, if they lose confidence and never to be seen again then they aren't good enough anyway. To make it at the very top you need to be technically and mentally strong. If you can't come back from set backs then you're not cut out for the top. It's all well and good skipping past players your own age at 16/17 and looking like the next Messi, try doing that at 19/20 against Sergio Ramos and Thiago Silva. They can't because they don't know how to.

How many young Thiago Silva or David Silva or Isco etc etc players, as kids, are currently 'hacking it' in the lower leagues & how many have done so, ever ? In fact, how many would 'hack it' playing for Tony Pulis, in the Premier League ? He would make allowances for them whilst they learned how to run under long hoofed passes, spoil, & kick people rather than play a Joey Barton there ? Seriously ?

We can't have a policy of bringing through small, skillful, intelligent young players & teaching them to play like Barca, then throw them into the lower leagues & expect them to 'hack it' they won't even get games, as even if they were physically strong enough, they are no more equipped for the mentality of that football than Richard Edghil would be, playing for Barca.

How do I expect them to play in the Prem when they can't play in the Championship ? Unfortunately, the same way most of the best players in the Prem manage it, by avoiding learning their trade, in the English leagues.

Is there a single example ever, of a small, not particularly quick, but intelligent & talented footballer, coming through from the lower leagues ?

 

[Neville Kneville]

I don't watch Academy games at all. Are any ready for 20+ first team games next season?

I don't watch many myself since Pellegrini, but right now I wouldn't say so, apart from maybe Garcia. But I think we have loads who wouild likely be able to step up & play occasionally, then perhaps one or two turn into 20 game+ players over he following seasons, but we have had about 20 of those over he past few seasons & hardly any have played at all. Without that start, none have any hope of becoming first team players, even just as squad players. Many have stagnated & are not as good now as they were 3 years ago.

But of course all the current kids will be that little bit older & perhaps physically more developed next season, so that could increase their chances hugely compared to right now, if Pep doesn't become wholly chequebook dependant.

 

[Neville Kneville]

It'd be hugely disappointing if Adarabioyo leaves. It'd almost make you question what the point is in us having an academy.

I almost reached that point two years ago, when we completely ignored a bunch of kids who were flying & playing great pass & move football, whilst allowing the first team to become older, less & less fit, slower & less & less arsed. And fans on here arguing the case for it & saying how everything is 'fine'.

I still have the hope that Pep does indeed intend to bring some through (he seems to be monitoring them avidly) & that Tosin's situation is just down to bad timing.

 

[WallyA]

I almost reached that point two years ago, when we completely ignored a bunch of kids who were flying & playing great pass & move football, whilst allowing the first team to become older, less & less fit, slower & less & less arsed. And fans on here arguing the case for it & saying how everything is 'fine'.

I still have the hope that Pep does indeed intend to bring some through (he seems to be monitoring them avidly) & that Tosin's situation is just down to bad timing.

I'm getting the feeling, on this forum atleast, that everyone concedes that are youth integration is awful. Then a slight divide happens with some people saying it is what it is and to spend more money, and others (like me) saying to supplement the players (which we paid alot of money for already) with a few youth players.

Brandon Barker is a case that had particularly irked me a couple of months ago; he was considered our 'jewel' before Diaz and look what we did. Just hoping for that Summer tour that a few kids can impress Pep, they are young and a little patience will be key with them because they are about 17, Barker was 19 (and physically built) last year so it made total sense to integrate him right away.

 

[BigOscar]

Is there a single example ever, of a small, not particularly quick, but intelligent & talented footballer, coming through from the lower leagues ?

Leon Britton, Joe Allen and Adam Lallana are the only ones I can think of, but they were real anomalies and no premier league teams were willing to give them a chance, they had to get themselves promoted to get that chance. Swansea and Southampton are very different to the vast majority of lower league teams though, there aren't many like them about.

 

[WNRH]

How many young Thiago Silva or David Silva or Isco etc etc players, as kids, are currently 'hacking it' in the lower leagues & how many have done so, ever ? In fact, how many would 'hack it' playing for Tony Pulis, in the Premier League ? He would make allowances for them whilst they learned how to run under long hoofed passes, spoil, & kick people rather than play a Joey Barton there ? Seriously ?

We can't have a policy of bringing through small, skillful, intelligent young players & teaching them to play like Barca, then throw them into the lower leagues & expect them to 'hack it' they won't even get games, as even if they were physically strong enough, they are no more equipped for the mentality of that football than Richard Edghil would be, playing for Barca.

How do I expect them to play in the Prem when they can't play in the Championship ? Unfortunately, the same way most of the best players in the Prem manage it, by avoiding learning their trade, in the English leagues.

Is there a single example ever, of a small, not particularly quick, but intelligent & talented footballer, coming through from the lower leagues ?

John Stones, Dele Alli, Harry Kane, Ross Barkley, Gary Cahill. Kyle Walker, Michael Keane, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, Adam Lallana to name a few. All of them would be good enough for us, all either started their careers in the lower league or gained experience at some stage of another.

Then you have players like Theo Walcott, Jesse Lingard, Victor Moses, Nathan Redmond who are important players playing for our rivals who have done the same.

On the other hand, what small, skillful, intelligent young players have come straight through from U18 - Reserves - First Team. The only ones i can think of are the ones who had the attributes to cope such as Rashford with his pace or Rooney with his physicality.

I will give you one example. Dan Crowley, went to Barnsley and then Oxford. He struggled but the one thing both him and Arsenal got out of it was he was able to learn that football is not easy like on a Saturday morning at a training ground. The result, he has gone to the Eredivisie with Go Ahead Eagles and is shining out there. Would he be doing that now if he hadn't have learnt how to ride tackles or win headers?

What we have been doing with our youngsters has not worked. We have had the most talented youngsters in europe on our books the last 5 years. We are Manchester City and play in the Premier League in England. Sending them to Holland to play tippy tappy football against Ajax reserves is not preparing them for us.

 

[WNRH]

In one post you talk about experience being the point of the loans and in another you ask what they could possibly have learnt playing in a professional league in front of 20,000 paying fans and fighting for promotion, alongside players who's livelihood depends on the outcomes of the games they are playing. You've gone on a rant above about mentality, which I've noticed is your favourite word when slagging off youth players, but actually, your idea of "mentality" is just going to league 1 for a bit and getting kicked in the shin without complaining.

I have to be honest I find your posts on this forum to be a caricature of some caveman English football fan stuck in the 80's, where the only thing that matters is someones ability to take a kicking or play on a pitch that's more mud than grass. It's gotten to the point where half the time I think you're actually just winding people up which I suppose is not helped by the fact you've not once made a positive comment about any youth player, and are the only person ever to watch a game of football who thinks Kevin De Bruyne lacks footballing intelligence.

Oh boy you don't half make me laugh. Mentality is the will to win and succeed. To come back from set backs and prove people wrong. Not to post on twitter "Great 7-0 win today, happy to get a goal and 4 assists". You don't play for a club like Manchester City if you don't have the mentality of Yaya, Silva, Aguero, Kompany. The will to improve each game, to not allow people to bully you, to get up on your own when you have been knocked down and say to yourself i'll make a mug of you next time. You do not learn that playing on artificial pitches playing against Ajax and PSV reserves for NAC Breda or playing the odd Carling Cup game and EDS game because you are stuck in the middle like Aleix Garcia and you tell me my views are outdated? Laughable, you're views don't belong in any era because this is the real world and not the fantasy world you live in when it comes to youth football. If you go to League One and the Championship after your first loan (because first loans are about experience and experience only) and you can't hack it, you aren't good enough to succeed, simple as that. This is a cut throat business and only the best get through, if we don't have anyone like that then we will go out and spend £40m+ on other clubs younger talents instead like Sane, Jesus and Stones.

You have never explained to me why you beleive that if a player can't hack it in League One, how can he then hack it in the Premier League with Ngolo Kante coming from behind or David Luiz beating you in the air.

Finally, who has said this quote yesterday in the paper?

"the top end of development is mental. Mental is about at what point do you run out of the ability to adapt to the quicker and more physical demands of the highest level. From what I’ve seen this year, a number of our boys will cope with it.”

Give you three guesses, the answer may surprise you as according to you, our views are outdated.

 

[Neville Kneville]

John Stones, Dele Alli, Harry Kane, Ross Barkley, Gary Cahill. Kyle Walker, Michael Keane, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, Adam Lallana to name a few. All of them would be good enough for us, all either started their careers in the lower league or gained experience at some stage of another.

Then you have players like Theo Walcott, Jesse Lingard, Victor Moses, Nathan Redmond who are important players playing for our rivals who have done the same.

On the other hand, what small, skillful, intelligent young players have come straight through from U18 - Reserves - First Team. The only ones i can think of are the ones who had the attributes to cope such as Rashford with his pace or Rooney with his physicality.

I will give you one example. Dan Crowley, went to Barnsley and then Oxford. He struggled but the one thing both him and Arsenal got out of it was he was able to learn that football is not easy like on a Saturday morning at a training ground. The result, he has gone to the Eredivisie with Go Ahead Eagles and is shining out there. Would he be doing that now if he hadn't have learnt how to ride tackles or win headers?

What we have been doing with our youngsters has not worked. We have had the most talented youngsters in europe on our books the last 5 years. We are Manchester City and play in the Premier League in England. Sending them to Holland to play tippy tappy football against Ajax reserves is not preparing them for us.

I don't understand any of that mate. You are listing a bunch of 6fters & sprinters when I'm talking about smaller, less physical players, (I have no problem with Tosin, etc playing lower league apart from I'm not sure he'd benefit more than he would listening to Pep on the training ground)

Then you are giving an example of an Arsenal player doing well in Holland, then saying it's no use doing well in Holland.

Then saying it's not possible to play in Holland without previous experience at Barnsley etc, when our own Bersant Celina is currently 'shining' out there & so did Jack Byrne, straight from our EDS. Rekik won a title there.

But your own examples show that in English fooball, almost every kid that comes through has size, pace or both. Which is my point.

Proof that the English system hasn't been working, & just randomly chucking kids into lower league teams is not going to solve it. We can see clearly from the game v Chelsea, that Diaz, Foden, Sancho would find it difficult to make an impression, in an average team vs powerful opponents, but they have huge talent. Micah Richards & Nedum though, would probably have swept up Chelsea's forwards without getting out of 2nd gear & they would have strolled it in the lower leagues.

We go on about players like Silva, coming through in other countries, but have an environment which prevents them from existing here. We need to find a way of bringing through the talented players, not throw them to the wolves. Imo, a it stands, the best way is to play them, off the bench, in the first team & in cup games. When being charged at by a huge individual, if Diaz, Foden etc have choice of an out ball of Silva, DeBruyne, Yaya Toure or Sane, they are in a much better position, than in a kids' game trying to find each other or Nmecha imo.

Paul Scholes, in the lower leagues, would have ended up Mke Sheron, a 1 goal in 3 or 4 games, run of the mill 2nd striker, not a game running midfielder. He even had to play on the wing for England because they didn't know what to do with him.

 

[Neville Kneville]

You have never explained to me why you beleive that if a player can't hack it in League One, how can he then hack it in the Premier League with Ngolo Kante coming from behind or David Luiz beating you in the air.

.

Patric Vieira was saying this 4 years ago, so it's hardly a surprise /new thing & I doubt anyone disagrees with it. The problem is how to achieve it & Phil Foden, sat on Brasdford City's bench because he's too small to make an impression, is not the way to do it.

You have never explained to me why you beleive that if a player can't hack it in League One, how can he then hack it in the Premier League with Ngolo Kante coming from behind or David Luiz beating you in the air.

Because, like David Silva, you learn to pass the ball & move rather than let Kante flatten you, & you don't bother trying to win an header vs Luiz, just like Aguero doesn't bother.

Where is the last place on Earth you learn to pass & move ? Ans: the English lower leagues, you are better off pretty much anywhere else.

You learn it, from Silva.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Patric Vieira was saying this 4 years ago, so it's hardly a surprise /new thing & I doubt anyone disagrees with it. The problem is how to achieve it & Phil Foden, sat on Brasdford City's bench because he's too small to make an impression, is not the way to do it.


Because, like David Silva, you learn to pass the ball & move rather than let Kante flatten you, & you don't bother trying to win an header vs Luiz, just like Aguero doesn't bother.

Where is the last place on Earth you learn to pass & move ? Ans: the English lower leagues, you are better off pretty much anywhere else.

You learn it, from Silva.

there are quite a few teams that play good football in the lower leagues though and dont just kick it long and every team isn't full of 6ft + huge players. brentford, leeds, reading, huddersfield all play pretty good passing football. i dont think the loans to holland are working tbh - the quality of football over there isn't great and theres almost no physical element to it and i dont think it prepares them at all for premier league football. its a tough one though and i understand what you mean, but i wouldn't say all lower league loans would be a waste of time.