Tour De France 2013

[crooky]

Think he's ok but could of been bad.questions will be asked IMO

Glad to hear it. They had a mare all day and could of killed him. Bodies should be dragged over hot coals. Cheers.

I'm not the biggest F1 follower, but I thought they'd introduced a restraining wire to stop wheels flying off?

There are extra strong wheel tethers designed to keep the wheels on during a high speed crash but that assumes the wheel nut is properly tightened which in this case it wasn't.

Not sure what they can do about the problem to be honest.

 

[andyhinch]

Glad to hear it. They had a mare all day and could of killed him. Bodies should be dragged over hot coals. Cheers.

I'm not the biggest F1 follower, but I thought they'd introduced a restraining wire to stop wheels flying off?

There are extra strong wheel tethers designed to keep the wheels on during a high speed crash but that assumes the wheel nut is properly tightened which in this case it wasn't.

Not sure what they can do about the problem to be honest.

As an engineering problem it not difficult tbh, would make pit stops longer, the FIA would have to intervene as a safety issue, with punishments handed out.

 

[Rascal]

Watching the highlights and it looks like Froome is riding in the Movistar train


Looks as comfy as if it was the Skytrain

Dont understand that guys? anyone help me out why?

Movistar's tactics today were, to me at least, somewhat puzzling. I put a lot of that down to Valverde who I don't think is particularly astute and is also suprisingly quite a conservative rider in his own right.

They had a chance early on to really work Froome over. When Valverde and his teamate attacked on the flat before the Peyresourde (after a word and nod from Contador) the other riders in that group quite rightly looked around and said 'Go on Chris it's up to you to close it' which he then had to do. Once Froome got on their wheel they could of knocked off the pace and let the group come back together and then had Qunitana attack and make Froome close it again, then repeat the process with Kreuziger, then Contador etc. Instead there was just that one attack and then Valverde pulled all the way up to the next group where Froome could get some respite.

The reason for the train, according to Movistar, was that they wanted to make sure they distanced Porte so that he's out of GC contention which is better for Valverde's podium hopes and stops Sky being able to play a 1-2 punch later in the tour (i.e if Porte now attacks there's no need to chase him). That make sense if you believe Porte stood a chance of getting back on to the lead group, personally I don't think he did.

I'm not saying they would have taken time out of Froome today but I do think they could have made it much harder for him by playing about with the tempo and making him shut down more gaps; the type of efforts that could catch up with his legs come week three. As it is he did very well which is great for him, not so much for the tour as a competitive spectacle.

Sky confused me today. I didn't understand right from the off why they seemed to want to shut down potential breaks that didn't seem that threatening GC wise. They chased down everything in those first 20k and they paid for it big style.

Thanks for that mate. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Shands]

Watching the highlights and it looks like Froome is riding in the Movistar train


Looks as comfy as if it was the Skytrain

Dont understand that guys? anyone help me out why?

Movistar's tactics today were, to me at least, somewhat puzzling. I put a lot of that down to Valverde who I don't think is particularly astute and is also suprisingly quite a conservative rider in his own right.

They had a chance early on to really work Froome over. When Valverde and his teamate attacked on the flat before the Peyresourde (after a word and nod from Contador) the other riders in that group quite rightly looked around and said 'Go on Chris it's up to you to close it' which he then had to do. Once Froome got on their wheel they could of knocked off the pace and let the group come back together and then had Qunitana attack and make Froome close it again, then repeat the process with Kreuziger, then Contador etc. Instead there was just that one attack and then Valverde pulled all the way up to the next group where Froome could get some respite.

The reason for the train, according to Movistar, was that they wanted to make sure they distanced Porte so that he's out of GC contention which is better for Valverde's podium hopes and stops Sky being able to play a 1-2 punch later in the tour (i.e if Porte now attacks there's no need to chase him). That make sense if you believe Porte stood a chance of getting back on to the lead group, personally I don't think he did.

I'm not saying they would have taken time out of Froome today but I do think they could have made it much harder for him by playing about with the tempo and making him shut down more gaps; the type of efforts that could catch up with his legs come week three. As it is he did very well which is great for him, not so much for the tour as a competitive spectacle.

Sky confused me today. I didn't understand right from the off why they seemed to want to shut down potential breaks that didn't seem that threatening GC wise. They chased down everything in those first 20k and they paid for it big style.

Thanks for that mate. Fascinating stuff.

I was thinking about this again this morning mate and perhaps another motive for Movistar's display could be that they feel it suits them for the time being for Froome to stay in yellow. With Kiryenka now gone, the injury to Thomas, the unknown condition of Kennaugh, plus the apparent lack of form of Lopez and Stannard, Sky look more vulnerable than expected and another week worth of sitting on the front of the bunch in the wind, having to control attacks, could leave them on empty by the time they hit the alps.

If that is the idea though its risky because you'd have to expect Froome to make some good time on his rivals in the first individual TT, so he could be hitting the alps with a 3 or 4 minute cushion, and with or even without the support of Richie I think he'd be feeling good with that. I do think though that's what the other teams are targeting; not trying to take back 30 seconds here or 30 seconds there, but rather trying to create a situation where he cracks big time on one day and loses 5 or 6 minutes (as he did one day at the Vuelta)

 

[Paul Lake's Left Knee]

Movistar's tactics today were, to me at least, somewhat puzzling. I put a lot of that down to Valverde who I don't think is particularly astute and is also suprisingly quite a conservative rider in his own right.

They had a chance early on to really work Froome over. When Valverde and his teamate attacked on the flat before the Peyresourde (after a word and nod from Contador) the other riders in that group quite rightly looked around and said 'Go on Chris it's up to you to close it' which he then had to do. Once Froome got on their wheel they could of knocked off the pace and let the group come back together and then had Qunitana attack and make Froome close it again, then repeat the process with Kreuziger, then Contador etc. Instead there was just that one attack and then Valverde pulled all the way up to the next group where Froome could get some respite.

The reason for the train, according to Movistar, was that they wanted to make sure they distanced Porte so that he's out of GC contention which is better for Valverde's podium hopes and stops Sky being able to play a 1-2 punch later in the tour (i.e if Porte now attacks there's no need to chase him). That make sense if you believe Porte stood a chance of getting back on to the lead group, personally I don't think he did.

I'm not saying they would have taken time out of Froome today but I do think they could have made it much harder for him by playing about with the tempo and making him shut down more gaps; the type of efforts that could catch up with his legs come week three. As it is he did very well which is great for him, not so much for the tour as a competitive spectacle.

Sky confused me today. I didn't understand right from the off why they seemed to want to shut down potential breaks that didn't seem that threatening GC wise. They chased down everything in those first 20k and they paid for it big style.

Thanks for that mate. Fascinating stuff.

I was thinking about this again this morning mate and perhaps another motive for Movistar's display could be that they feel it suits them for the time being for Froome to stay in yellow. With Kiryenka now gone, the injury to Thomas, the unknown condition of Kennaugh, plus the apparent lack of form of Lopez and Stannard, Sky look more vulnerable than expected and another week worth of sitting on the front of the bunch in the wind, having to control attacks, could leave them on empty by the time they hit the alps.

If that is the idea though its risky because you'd have to expect Froome to make some good time on his rivals in the first individual TT, so he could be hitting the alps with a 3 or 4 minute cushion, and with or even without the support of Richie I think he'd be feeling good with that. I do think though that's what the other teams are targeting; not trying to take back 30 seconds here or 30 seconds there, but rather trying to create a situation where he cracks big time on one day and loses 5 or 6 minutes (as he did one day at the Vuelta)

Totally agree with your sentiments around yesterday mate, I couldnt get my head around Movistar last night when thinking about it. One thing, it might have been a prearranged tactic and when they shed all the Sky riders, they got caught up in that (and worrying they would get back on) and didnt think about it, at the start of the stage they would have been thinking about second in GC and cracking Contador rather than worrying about Froome. This might change now, shame we have to wait till Sunday for the GC contest to resume (I agree Froome will probably be 3-4 mins up by then) i cant see them letting Froome sit in their train again. Although Sky now have a week for Porte to get his legs again, and the knocks and bangs to clear up for the others. With the top climbers they have at home watching (Uran and Henao) they must be thinking they've fucked up in their team selection, all because they tried to give Wiggo a good team in the Giro.

Contador is a strange one for me, i dont think he has the legs, i think Saxo were keen for the pace to drop yesterday, they tried to control that group a couple of times (when the gap to Porte started to come down) but Movistar just pushed it back on again.

Overall however, there is an over reaction to the Sky train breaking, Evans is always on his own when the going gets really tough for example, didnt stop him winning did it? Froome has a huge TT advantage over his rivals after all, and i dont think he will crack like he did in the Vuelta as he will be in peak condition, rather than end of a long season condition like he was in Spain.

 

[Shands]

Thanks for that mate. Fascinating stuff.

I was thinking about this again this morning mate and perhaps another motive for Movistar's display could be that they feel it suits them for the time being for Froome to stay in yellow. With Kiryenka now gone, the injury to Thomas, the unknown condition of Kennaugh, plus the apparent lack of form of Lopez and Stannard, Sky look more vulnerable than expected and another week worth of sitting on the front of the bunch in the wind, having to control attacks, could leave them on empty by the time they hit the alps.

If that is the idea though its risky because you'd have to expect Froome to make some good time on his rivals in the first individual TT, so he could be hitting the alps with a 3 or 4 minute cushion, and with or even without the support of Richie I think he'd be feeling good with that. I do think though that's what the other teams are targeting; not trying to take back 30 seconds here or 30 seconds there, but rather trying to create a situation where he cracks big time on one day and loses 5 or 6 minutes (as he did one day at the Vuelta)

Totally agree with your sentiments around yesterday mate, I couldnt get my head around Movistar last night when thinking about it. One thing, it might have been a prearranged tactic and when they shed all the Sky riders, they got caught up in that (and worrying they would get back on) and didnt think about it, at the start of the stage they would have been thinking about second in GC and cracking Contador rather than worrying about Froome. This might change now, shame we have to wait till Sunday for the GC contest to resume (I agree Froome will probably be 3-4 mins up by then) i cant see them letting Froome sit in their train again. Although Sky now have a week for Porte to get his legs again, and the knocks and bangs to clear up for the others. With the top climbers they have at home watching (Uran and Henao) they must be thinking they've fucked up in their team selection, all because they tried to give Wiggo a good team in the Giro.

Contador is a strange one for me, i dont think he has the legs, i think Saxo were keen for the pace to drop yesterday, they tried to control that group a couple of times (when the gap to Porte started to come down) but Movistar just pushed it back on again.

Overall however, there is an over reaction to the Sky train breaking, Evans is always on his own when the going gets really tough for example, didnt stop him winning did it? Froome has a huge TT advantage over his rivals after all, and i dont think he will crack like he did in the Vuelta as he will be in peak condition, rather than end of a long season condition like he was in Spain.

I think you're spot on with a lot of that, in-particular regarding Valverde riding for 2nd spot. I just don't believe he grasped what an opportunity there was presented to them to co-operate and hurt Froome. I noticed Movistar said publicly last night something about possibly forming an alliance with other teams over the next two weeks - well it's a few hours too late lads! You really have to grasp an opportunity like that when it comes along. To be fair though only they know how their legs felt (and those of their teammates), what the heat was like, the wind, the nature of the road etc, and as I've raced precisely zero races in my life I shouldn't criticise....but I will ;-)

I don't know with Contador where he's at. I think I posted on here on Saturday that I felt he was suffering on the Pailheres (he was slightly further back in the group than usual and sat in the saddle rather than bobbing on the pedals), and so it proved come the last climb. Yesterday he looked much better and Mick Rodgers said in an interview that they had to keep him calm and stop him attacking (though that could be public bluster) but like you I thought come the last climb he wasn't at his best; Kreuziger seemed to be looking and waiting for the nod to go but it never came. I think perhaps after coming back and winning The Vuelta with no competitive racing, he's then subsequently been a little complacent and not trained as hard as he should have done in the winter so has hit this season without a good enough base level. Having said that he looked strong in the Team Time Trial and the one thing you know with him is that come the Alps, if he has the legs, he will attack and attack and attack till he drops off the bike, because he races to win and entertain.

Think you're bang on about Froome too, looking at him I'm not sure he needs the train. From the other teams point of view though I suppose they don't have much choice. Rather than backing themselves to be the best 'man to man' in the mountains, as they might usually do, I suspect Contador, Valverde et al are all well aware that Froome is the strongest rider this year and that going toe to toe with him will be fruitless. As such they've got to try and make it an uneven playing field, stack the odds more in their favour as it were, and the best way to do that is a) make sure he has less in the tank than they do when it reaches the alps b) make sure he has less team support than they do and c) work together. As I say they'll be pinning their hopes on a cummulitive effect of isolation costing him enough on just one stage to take yellow away. Will it work? I dunno, but it should be tactically fascinating.

 

[Rascal]

Interesting stuff lads.

From what you have been saying it does sound like a massive missed opportunity as i dont expect Porte to have another bad day like Sunday. Team Sky apart from Froome had a collective shocker especially in losing Kiri, but now they have a few flat days were they can recuperate ready for Ventoux or will the other teams force Sky to chase all week? And if Sky have to chase Cav would be made up surely as his train can sit in the peloton and make it easier for them for stage wins.


Do you think Porte being out of the GC is a good or bad thing? Can he concentrate on just helping Froome now his podium chances are gone. On saturday he attacked and maybe that took more out of him that he realised and now he doesnt have too at all because if Froome goes he can rest up and ride in.

 

[Shands]

Interesting stuff lads.

From what you have been saying it does sound like a massive missed opportunity as i dont expect Porte to have another bad day like Sunday. Team Sky apart from Froome had a collective shocker especially in losing Kiri, but now they have a few flat days were they can recuperate ready for Ventoux or will the other teams force Sky to chase all week? And if Sky have to chase Cav would be made up surely as his train can sit in the peloton and make it easier for them for stage wins.


Do you think Porte being out of the GC is a good or bad thing? Can he concentrate on just helping Froome now his podium chances are gone. On saturday he attacked and maybe that took more out of him that he realised and now he doesnt have too at all because if Froome goes he can rest up and ride in.

I don't think Porte being out of GC makes a great deal of difference to be honest Rascal. First and foremost his job coming into the tour was to protect Froome, and bury himself on his behalf if needed, that hasn't changed. The podium was always going to be a bonus for him. On the negative side it limits Sky tactically somewhat, but balancing that out Porte can now conserve energy in the individual time trials if he wishes, so it's neither good nor bad in that sense. I think they would have preferred him still to be right up there in GC but it's not a massive blow (provided of course it's a one off and not symptomatic of an inability to handle back to back mountain stages in this heat)

As for your other question about this week, that's a real wait and see one. Normally Sky would be looking at a serene few days where the sprint trains take the lead, and that still may be the case, but I wouldn't rule out other teams trying to test their strength out on the flat, especially if the wind blows and theirs the chance of echelons. To some extent the complete dominance Froome showed on Saturday could end up counting against him. With such a large margin of victory in one fell swoop he effectively took a lot of good riders and even whole teams (i.e FDJ, Europcar, even BMC to a degree) out of the GC picture. Those guys will still want something from the tour, i.e stage wins or shows of strength, and with the shackles off they may be looking to animate the race as much as possible. Fractured racing means Sky will have to concentrate to make sure people of danger aren't sneakily slipping off the front in to breaks. Alternatively it may be the sprint teams who take the lead in controlling things with a really high pace, which again could be punishing for all the Peleton and particularly Sky if Sunday is any indicator.

Ultimately the riders make the race so we'll just have to see how they choose to play it.

Course that could all be rubbish! :)

 

[andyhinch]

As a few have said not sure Froome needs the train, he looked perfectly happy staying on the wheel of who ever he felt he needed to

 

[Rascal]

ITV4s highlight show could be interesting next half hour ;)