trade unions

[Bill]

Why can't people realise that the cuts the current government are undertaking are as a direct result of the poor financial management of the last government.

Do people really see it as simply as: My dad says the tory's are c*nts so it must be true.
To many people i know complain about the state of the country but always vote the same way regardless of the fact they think the elected goverment is doing shit.
Start thinking for yourselves people

Of course it was labour that caused this shit, everyone knows it but won't admit it, it's easier to attack dave as he cleans up the mess.
That said it's no good going on about labour and their pathetic attempt to run a country we now need to buckle down and get on with the job, tough as it may be.

Ps
Scargill was a cancer on our country.

 

[r.soleofsalford]

Why can't people realise that the cuts the current government are undertaking are as a direct result of the poor financial management of the last government.

Do people really see it as simply as: My dad says the tory's are c*nts so it must be true.
To many people i know complain about the state of the country but always vote the same way regardless of the fact they think the elected goverment is doing shit.
Start thinking for yourselves people

Of course it was labour that caused this shit, everyone knows it but won't admit it, it's easier to attack dave as he cleans up the mess.
That said it's no good going on about labour and their pathetic attempt to run a country we now need to buckle down and get on with the job, tough as it may be.

Ps
Scargill was a cancer on our country.

scargill was a wanker but he told the truth regarding pit closure unlike thatcher and her henchman macgregor

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

As usual with these debates I find myself trapped in the middle.

It is wrong to suggest that unions have no role whatsoever. There are workers within society who do not have sufficient negotiating power individually who are entitled to some form of collective protection. It is very easy for people in management positions to say glibly 'if you don't like it get another job elsewhere', but the market does not remotely resemble anything fair to that part of the job market.

I also do not think, as some have suggested on here, that public sector workers are any less entitled to be part of a union. In fact, arguably, the nature of their work and the numbers employed makes it more necessary that they have some form of collective bargaining.

I do feel, however, that sustained strike action en masse over this matter will drive a wedge between the public and private sectors which will take a generation to heal. You are already seeing the signs of it with, for example, some of the language on this board (not just this thread).

and I paraphrase:

'we didn't cause this recession why should we be the ones to pay for it?'

This attitude ignores one truth at the heart of this matter which I am yet to receive an adequate response on this board in spite of repeated prompts to elicit one:

The fact is that the enormous increases in public spending between 2003 and 2008 were funded by unsustainable borrowing. The word unsustainable is self-explanatory.

It could not continue.

It was unaffordable.

On that basis it is entirely right that public spending levels fall to a level that is. As I understand it spending levels are going to fall to around 2008 levels. It's hardly a return to Thatcherite days. Society will still be able to enjoy the increases that were (quite rightly) undertaken in spending levels between 1997-2008.

When people in the private sector are suffering to the extent that many of them are there is a feeling from many that the public sector is merely having to share a bit of the pain that in reality was caused, in part, by excessive and unsustainable spending on that public sector. In that sense the public sector has to share the 'blame'.

A failure by some to even acknowledge this will lead to a severe backlash from many outside the public sector, of that I am sure.

Edit:The article below that I just found just about sums it up for me.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/sean-ogrady-unions-risk-becoming-as-irrelevant-in-the-public-sector-as-in-the-private-2299921.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 99921.html</a>

 

[cyberblue]

And if it hadn't been for Trade Unions, we'd probably never have got Thatcher. Every cloud has a silver lining as they say.

& we are still paying the price for her terms in ofice

-- Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:04 pm --

No

if it wasnt for the unions the miners would still have jobs.

what a lot of rubbish. even the miners iYou miss the point - What Scargill predicted was right. The fact he ignored some of his members to make
n the nottingham coal fields that stayed at work through the strike were kicked out of there jobs by thatcher bitterness.

miner who fought to go to work and earn a living for there family`s were treated worse than arsehole who prefered to do fuck all and claim benifits all there lives

You miss the point, what Scargill predicted was right. The fact that he chose to ignore and deny some of his members their basic right to vote is where he went wrong and eventually cost his members(strkers or not) their jobs. Also facter in the timing when British Coal had been stock piling coal for months it was a fight they could not win without total support. At the end of the strike when Scargill claimed victory there was still enough coal stock piled to go for another few months but Scargill turned family members against eachother tgo try and further his own political aims. I hope he is proud of all the divided families he created and the state of his industry.

If there were more Union Leaders like Scargill the working class wouldnt have been shit on as much as we have been .He never chose to shut mines ,he never chose to sack miners ,he didnt turn miners villages into drug ridden slums .he is not the one who is robbing the pension funds ,or making women work till they 65 or paying bonus"s to the bankers .he never shut a hostpital or old people home<br /><br />-- Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:09 pm --<br /><br />

If it wasn't for the unions the Miners would still have jobs.
If it wasn't for the unions British Steel would still be a major employer in the UK.
If it wasn't for the unions British manufacturing industry would still be a major player in the world economy.

But at least the principle of what they stood for was right. I bet all those unemployed former union members aere well proud of that.

How do you work this one out ?

 

[Bill]

And if it hadn't been for Trade Unions, we'd probably never have got Thatcher. Every cloud has a silver lining as they say.

& we are still paying the price for her terms in ofice

-- Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:04 pm --

if it wasnt for the unions the miners would still have jobs.

what a lot of rubbish. even the miners iYou miss the point - What Scargill predicted was right. The fact he ignored some of his members to make
n the nottingham coal fields that stayed at work through the strike were kicked out of there jobs by thatcher bitterness.

miner who fought to go to work and earn a living for there family`s were treated worse than arsehole who prefered to do fuck all and claim benifits all there lives

You miss the point, what Scargill predicted was right. The fact that he chose to ignore and deny some of his members their basic right to vote is where he went wrong and eventually cost his members(strkers or not) their jobs. Also facter in the timing when British Coal had been stock piling coal for months it was a fight they could not win without total support. At the end of the strike when Scargill claimed victory there was still enough coal stock piled to go for another few months but Scargill turned family members against eachother tgo try and further his own political aims. I hope he is proud of all the divided families he created and the state of his industry.

If there were more Union Leaders like Scargill the working class wouldnt have been shit on as much as we have been .He never chose to shut mines ,he never chose to sack miners ,he didnt turn miners villages into drug ridden slums .he is not the one who is robbing the pension funds ,or making women work till they 65 or paying bonus"s to the bankers .he never shut a hostpital or old people home

-- Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:09 pm --

If it wasn't for the unions the Miners would still have jobs.
If it wasn't for the unions British Steel would still be a major employer in the UK.
If it wasn't for the unions British manufacturing industry would still be a major player in the world economy.

But at least the principle of what they stood for was right. I bet all those unemployed former union members aere well proud of that.

How do you work this one out ?

ever thought of stand up?

 

[ultimateharold]

Why can't people realise that the cuts the current government are undertaking are as a direct result of the poor financial management of the last government.

Do people really see it as simply as: My dad says the tory's are c*nts so it must be true.
To many people i know complain about the state of the country but always vote the same way regardless of the fact they think the elected goverment is doing shit.
Start thinking for yourselves people

Of course it was labour that caused this shit, everyone knows it but won't admit it, it's easier to attack dave as he cleans up the mess.
That said it's no good going on about labour and their pathetic attempt to run a country we now need to buckle down and get on with the job, tough as it may be.

Nail.

 

[sweynforkbeard]

And if it hadn't been for Trade Unions, we'd probably never have got Thatcher. Every cloud has a silver lining as they say.

& we are still paying the price for her terms in ofice

-- Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:04 pm --

You miss the point, what Scargill predicted was right. The fact that he chose to ignore and deny some of his members their basic right to vote is where he went wrong and eventually cost his members(strkers or not) their jobs. Also facter in the timing when British Coal had been stock piling coal for months it was a fight they could not win without total support. At the end of the strike when Scargill claimed victory there was still enough coal stock piled to go for another few months but Scargill turned family members against eachother tgo try and further his own political aims. I hope he is proud of all the divided families he created and the state of his industry.

If there were more Union Leaders like Scargill the working class wouldnt have been shit on as much as we have been .He never chose to shut mines ,he never chose to sack miners ,he didnt turn miners villages into drug ridden slums .he is not the one who is robbing the pension funds ,or making women work till they 65 or paying bonus"s to the bankers .he never shut a hostpital or old people home

-- Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:09 pm --

If it wasn't for the unions the Miners would still have jobs.
If it wasn't for the unions British Steel would still be a major employer in the UK.
If it wasn't for the unions British manufacturing industry would still be a major player in the world economy.

But at least the principle of what they stood for was right. I bet all those unemployed former union members aere well proud of that.

How do you work this one out ?

ever thought of stand up?

Rather this than another trip to Ikea for a sofa. God, the hellhole.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

& we are still paying the price for her terms in ofice

-- Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:04 pm --

If there were more Union Leaders like Scargill the working class wouldnt have been shit on as much as we have been .He never chose to shut mines ,he never chose to sack miners ,he didnt turn miners villages into drug ridden slums .he is not the one who is robbing the pension funds ,or making women work till they 65 or paying bonus"s to the bankers .he never shut a hostpital or old people home

-- Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:09 pm --

How do you work this one out ?

ever thought of stand up?

Rather this than another trip to Ikea for a sofa. God, the hellhole.

True. If you want to purhase a mere cup and saucer it involves a guided tour of every scrap of furniture ever made in Sweden, a trip in more lifts than a startrooper in one of the popular space films and a bewildering array of scissor lifs and fork-lifts to relieve the tedium.
Hellhole is a flattering description.

 

[law74]

Why I will be voting in favour of Strike action and will be withdrawing my labour

About 12 years ago I took a drop of wages of over £150 per month to leave the private sector, working shifts in a factory, to enter the Civil Service.
The reasons for this were worklife balance, promotion prospects and pension.
The job i am in now, having been promoted about 6 years ago, means that i have to work early mornings (often leaving home before 5am), late nights (often arriving home after 2am) and weekends, though as a + side, I can take this time during the week when most will be tied to their desk. There has now been a promotion ban for well over a year, and now the government are expecting me to not only make do with a wage freeze (or should i say wage cut with inflation starting to rise), but are now wanting me to pay an exxtra £52.50 per month, work an extra 7 years and get £44,000+ less of a pension (depending on how long I live).
This is not the contract I signed up for, and if the government or any employer wishes to ammend the terms and conditions of employment, then they MUST enter into real and open negotiations, not with pre-conditions.

From each by their means, to each by their needs.

 

[r.soleofsalford]

No

if it wasnt for the unions the miners would still have jobs.

what a lot of rubbish. even the miners iYou miss the point - What Scargill predicted was right. The fact he ignored some of his members to make
n the nottingham coal fields that stayed at work through the strike were kicked out of there jobs by thatcher bitterness.

miner who fought to go to work and earn a living for there family`s were treated worse than arsehole who prefered to do fuck all and claim benifits all there lives

You miss the point, what Scargill predicted was right. The fact that he chose to ignore and deny some of his members their basic right to vote is where he went wrong and eventually cost his members(strkers or not) their jobs. Also facter in the timing when British Coal had been stock piling coal for months it was a fight they could not win without total support. At the end of the strike when Scargill claimed victory there was still enough coal stock piled to go for another few months but Scargill turned family members against eachother tgo try and further his own political aims. I hope he is proud of all the divided families he created and the state of his industry.

as i`ve stated already scargill was a despicable knob who tried to use the genuine concerns of the miners for his own ends whether political or egotistical or a bit of both.

thatcher on the other hand was a vicious woman who in her position as P.M. abused her power, regardless of the damage to the communities that were fighting to save jobs. mines managers were told not to open new seams and to keep running none profitable seams so as to validate her case for mine closures.

ironically she too imo did what she did for political revenge and egotistical reasons.