Transgender Sportswomen in Sport

Blue&whitestripes said:
Did you look at *any* of the links I've posted?

There are long-term studies ongoing - one at Loughborough University - to measure the effects of HRT on male athletes over time. But, as I've said before, there is no evidence whatsoever to date to suggest that any reduction in muscle strength resulting from hormone use will be more than about 5%, still leaving male athletes as a significant advantage to female ones, even without allowing for build, height, limb length, Q angle etc.

See this article in today's Times:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...p?shareToken=db0d2c2ffd264d7defd494ceed5c4af2

Testosterone suppression for transgender women has little effect on reducing muscle strength even after a year of treatment, according to new findings. Researchers say the findings could have important implications for transgender athletes in female sport.

Most sports governing bodies, including the International Olympic Committee, now have policies saying transwomen must take testosterone blockers for at least a year before they can compete at elite level.

But findings by the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, to be published this year, have shown the effect of the hormone treatment in relation to reducing leg muscle strength, is almost neglible for men who transition to become women.

That could be significant in sporting terms because it indicates the physical advantages of biological males are maintained even after transitioning and after hormone therapy to reduce testosterone levels.

And, also as I've said before, the IOC rules changed just before the last Olympics (not enough time for anyone affected to qualify) in that they stopped requiring surgery. From evidence given to Parliament, anywhere between 80 - 95& of males identifying as women retain their male genitals. There is every reason to believe that those percentages are accurate worldwide, therefore it's easy to see that the pool of potential athletes has greatly increased.

This is not a problem people "are looking for" IT IS ALREADY HERE. Did you read the recent announcement that transwomen were going to be allowed into female Rugby teams? Not a single person I saw comment on it, including men who have played and/or coached the sport for many years, think that is a good, sensible or safe idea.

The issue of transmen (you referred to Mack Beggs) is very different. It is highly unlikely that a transman is going to be able to compete with male athletes. Mack won their championships against girls despite being on testosterone which - in a drugs-testing regime - would have led to T levels that would have had a female banned. As far as I can find out, Mack has never competed against males. If you're not already aware of it, you should do some research into the East German doping scandals. Start with the 1980 Olympics and how Sharron Davis lost out on Gold. Testosterone will give a female an advantage over other females, not against males.

EDITED TO ADD (also from the Times article linked above):
Dr Tommy Lundberg, an exercise physiologist at the Karolinska Institute who has led the research, said that muscle mass dropped by five per cent after a year’s treatment, but that the effect on trans women’s muscle strength was neglible. The research was carried out on 23 volunteers — 12 trans women and 11 trans men — to monitor changes in muscle mass and strength during and after a year of hormone therapy.


It's not just elite sport that's affected - it's every level of sport, from grassroots upwards.
Every trans identified male moving into a female team takes away a place from a woman or girl. Their presence may make the sport unsafe (contact sports, martial arts); it will certainly make the sport unfair (see previous examples).
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Sorry, I don't seem to have made myself clear, I'm broadly agreeing with you but with some minor differences.
I don't think there should be a blanket ban on all transgender athletes as this seems unfair to me. The study you cite states that there is negligible loss of strength in the legs of MTF transgender athletes, fair enough, so how much difference does that make in various sports? This study may show that an athlete who competes in weightlifting may have an advantage (purely using this study on the strength in the legs of course, this isn't taking into account the other physiological differences and changes, muscle memory, changes in quick twitch muscle fibres, etc) so maybe MTF athletes in weight lifting should be banned as they would have an unfair advantage. However, does this extra leg strength help an MTF golfer? Maybe, maybe not, however I don't think they should automatically be banned because a weightlifter has an advantage.
What I was trying to say is that for me individual sports should look at how these issues affect their own sport rather than having them all making group decisions as that makes more sense to me personally.
This would especially be the case on contact sports as obviously there's a much higher risk of injury to others. There needs to be a more rational discussion around self identification too, especially at lower ability levels and younger age groups as for someone to self identify with no medical intervention will not work at all.
As I said, I broadly agree with you and think this is something that needs to be sorted out now while the relative numbers of people affected is fairly small (hence me saying this isn't a problem that's here at the moment, for example you have said that trans athletes can play rugby now but my question is how many actually ARE playing rugby) as this is an issue that is going to become more and more prevalent over time.
Just as a short FYI postscript Mack Beggs now wrestles in the male category as he has had his birth certificate changed to male now but I've no idea how he gets on in the male league. This is also an interesting read regarding the arguments and science involved; https://sportsscientists.com/2019/0...ing_wp_cron=1567084491.1466479301452636718750
 
danielwood5 said:
Sorry, I don't seem to have made myself clear, I'm broadly agreeing with you but with some minor differences.
I don't think there should be a blanket ban on all transgender athletes as this seems unfair to me. The study you cite states that there is negligible loss of strength in the legs of MTF transgender athletes, fair enough, so how much difference does that make in various sports? This study may show that an athlete who competes in weightlifting may have an advantage (purely using this study on the strength in the legs of course, this isn't taking into account the other physiological differences and changes, muscle memory, changes in quick twitch muscle fibres, etc) so maybe MTF athletes in weight lifting should be banned as they would have an unfair advantage. However, does this extra leg strength help an MTF golfer? Maybe, maybe not, however I don't think they should automatically be banned because a weightlifter has an advantage.
What I was trying to say is that for me individual sports should look at how these issues affect their own sport rather than having them all making group decisions as that makes more sense to me personally.
This would especially be the case on contact sports as obviously there's a much higher risk of injury to others. There needs to be a more rational discussion around self identification too, especially at lower ability levels and younger age groups as for someone to self identify with no medical intervention will not work at all.
As I said, I broadly agree with you and think this is something that needs to be sorted out now while the relative numbers of people affected is fairly small (hence me saying this isn't a problem that's here at the moment, for example you have said that trans athletes can play rugby now but my question is how many actually ARE playing rugby) as this is an issue that is going to become more and more prevalent over time.
Just as a short FYI postscript Mack Beggs now wrestles in the male category as he has had his birth certificate changed to male now but I've no idea how he gets on in the male league. This is also an interesting read regarding the arguments and science involved; https://sportsscientists.com/2019/0...ing_wp_cron=1567084491.1466479301452636718750
Click to expand...
I generally agree with you, but there are so many factors involved in being good at sport and science works so slowly and imperfectly that it's going to be difficult to calculate the advantage gained in any individual sport. Even sports where you wouldn't think being male would be an advantage like snooker, darts or shooting still have men dominating the top level of the sport. Perhaps that just reflecting how often men and women do these sports, but as I understand it, men on average have better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. Of course these things are partly determined by the brain, and so if it's accurate to describe transgender people as having a 'brain gender' that doesn't match that of their body or the gender they were assigned at birth, it'd be interesting to know whether this carries over into typically male or female traits of said brain when it comes to sports.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
I generally agree with you, but there are so many factors involved in being good at sport and science works so slowly and imperfectly that it's going to be difficult to calculate the advantage gained in any individual sport. Even sports where you wouldn't think being male would be an advantage like snooker, darts or shooting still have men dominating the top level of the sport. Perhaps that just reflecting how often men and women do these sports, but as I understand it, men on average have better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. Of course these things are partly determined by the brain, and so if it's accurate to describe transgender people as having a 'brain gender' that doesn't match that of their body or the gender they were assigned at birth, it'd be interesting to know whether this carries over into typically male or female traits of said brain when it comes to sports.
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As I'm someone with no stake in this at all I'm intrigued to see what will come of the research into all this.
Once all the emotional arguments on both sides is stripped away the actual science involved is fascinating, that's why I'd love to see more in depth studies rather than just looking at muscle mass, strength gain/loss, etc.
I'm hugely glad I'm not involved in making any kind of definitive decision regarding the issues of transgender athletes though as it's an incredibly complex and emotive subject.
 
danielwood5 said:
As I'm someone with no stake in this at all I'm intrigued to see what will come of the research into all this.
Once all the emotional arguments on both sides is stripped away the actual science involved is fascinating, that's why I'd love to see more in depth studies rather than just looking at muscle mass, strength gain/loss, etc.
I'm hugely glad I'm not involved in making any kind of definitive decision regarding the issues of transgender athletes though as it's an incredibly complex and emotive subject.
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Tell me how a sex change gets rid of the 10 to 12% lung capacity advantage they have from being a biological man. That makes a difference in any sport they take part in.
 
Scottyboi said:
Tell me how a sex change gets rid of the 10 to 12% lung capacity advantage they have from being a biological man. That makes a difference in any sport they take part in.
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I've no idea, I'm not an endocrinologist or a sports scientist. That's why I'm interested in seeing what actual impartial scientists come up with rather than half informed emotional bigots (not you obviously!).
 
danielwood5 said:
Sorry, I don't seem to have made myself clear, I'm broadly agreeing with you but with some minor differences.
I don't think there should be a blanket ban on all transgender athletes as this seems unfair to me. The study you cite states that there is negligible loss of strength in the legs of MTF transgender athletes, fair enough, so how much difference does that make in various sports? This study may show that an athlete who competes in weightlifting may have an advantage (purely using this study on the strength in the legs of course, this isn't taking into account the other physiological differences and changes, muscle memory, changes in quick twitch muscle fibres, etc) so maybe MTF athletes in weight lifting should be banned as they would have an unfair advantage. However, does this extra leg strength help an MTF golfer? Maybe, maybe not, however I don't think they should automatically be banned because a weightlifter has an advantage.
What I was trying to say is that for me individual sports should look at how these issues affect their own sport rather than having them all making group decisions as that makes more sense to me personally.
This would especially be the case on contact sports as obviously there's a much higher risk of injury to others. There needs to be a more rational discussion around self identification too, especially at lower ability levels and younger age groups as for someone to self identify with no medical intervention will not work at all.
As I said, I broadly agree with you and think this is something that needs to be sorted out now while the relative numbers of people affected is fairly small (hence me saying this isn't a problem that's here at the moment, for example you have said that trans athletes can play rugby now but my question is how many actually ARE playing rugby) as this is an issue that is going to become more and more prevalent over time.
Just as a short FYI postscript Mack Beggs now wrestles in the male category as he has had his birth certificate changed to male now but I've no idea how he gets on in the male league. This is also an interesting read regarding the arguments and science involved; https://sportsscientists.com/2019/0...ing_wp_cron=1567084491.1466479301452636718750
Click to expand...


I'll start by asking you "Why shouldn't there be a blanket ban on transgender athletes?"

I can't agree that because there aren't many trans athletes at the moment, it's not a problem. We should have the evidence first and only then, if it is forthcoming, allow them to compete against females. Why should women's sport be an experimental test ground? Why should women risk losing team places, medals, honours, records, even sponsorships & careers?
It's illuminating to consider that when Oscar Pistorious wanted to compete in the the Olympics he had to prove that his blades *didn't* give him an advantage. The IOC spent a lot more time & effort on that than they did on the question of including biological males in female sports categories.

As Dr Hilton (https://fairplayforwomen.com/emma_hilton/) summarised about the IOC policy :
  • Of the papers returned in my systematic search, only 11 contained any data most relevant to sporting performance.
  • Only 4 of these contained any direct measurements of performance.
  • Only 3 of these were good science.
  • Only 2 of these were available to the IOC in 2015, both of which demonstrate that transwomen retain far superior muscular architecture and strength that would favour competitive advantage, and neither of which supports the premise that transwomen can be fairly included in female sports.

My position is that until and unless there is categorical evidence that transwomen retain none of their puberty-induced physiological advantages over females, then there should be no transgender athletes in female sport. I don't think that is what the evidence will prove, and in any case hormones won't reduce limb length, heart/blood & lung capacity or change the Q angle - all of which have significant advantages in sports. Extra leg strength might not help a golfer - but extra arm strength might, as might the (on average) longer arm length which provides greater leverage. (There's info here about average drive length between players of different capabilities and between Mmale & female https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2018...-you-hit-golf-ball-distance-report-has-answer)

I read that article from Ross at the time. You may not be aware that in response to it being quoted recently, he had the following to say:




I particularly agree with his second tweet of the three: "the biological principles for separation into men’s and women’s categories in sport are so strong that to overturn it requires exceptional evidence"
 
I'm With Stupid said:
I generally agree with you, but there are so many factors involved in being good at sport and science works so slowly and imperfectly that it's going to be difficult to calculate the advantage gained in any individual sport. Even sports where you wouldn't think being male would be an advantage like snooker, darts or shooting still have men dominating the top level of the sport. Perhaps that just reflecting how often men and women do these sports, but as I understand it, men on average have better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. Of course these things are partly determined by the brain, and so if it's accurate to describe transgender people as having a 'brain gender' that doesn't match that of their body or the gender they were assigned at birth, it'd be interesting to know whether this carries over into typically male or female traits of said brain when it comes to sports.
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There's no such thing as "male brain in a female body" or vice versa.
 
Blue&whitestripes said:
There's no such thing as "male brain in a female body" or vice versa.
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There are certainly differences between male and female brain structures. Studies have also shown differences in certain parts of the brain between transgender women and cisgender men.

Using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), some trans women were found to have female typical putamen that were larger in size than cisgender males.[11] Some trans women have also shown a female typical central part of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) and interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus number 3 (INAH-3), looking at the number of neurons found within each.
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That's from Wikipedia, but the linked sources look pretty credible. I'll be honest, I don't know enough about neuroscience to be able to fully understand the original paper (it's really long and technical), or know whether these differences occur naturally or as a result of hormone treatment, but it's does seem credible that the idea of being "trapped in the wrong body" isn't entirely in their head (pun intended).
 
As I understand it - and I'm relying on explanations I've had from people who *do* understand this stuff - those studies that showed either similarities between transwomen & women, or differences between transwomen & men, failed to take into account sexual orientation, and that the same differences/similarities occur if you compare straight women to homosexual males or homosexual males to men. Nor did it take into account brain plasticity.

Also - an extract from here ( https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/05/the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon-review) about the book that's lined up next on my kindle:

Brick by brick, Rippon razes this history and, for the (non-scientist) reader, what she says is revolutionary to a glorious degree. To sum up: the notion that there is such a thing as a female brain is bunkum, more or less. Furthermore, now that we know our brains are highly plastic, and for so much longer than we once thought, our aptitudes and behaviour must be linked not only to nurture rather than sex, but to life itself: to all that we do and experience down the years.​

Also https://cosmicshambles.com/words/blogs/deanburnett/male-and-female-brains and https://www.theatlantic.com/science...-female-brains-biologically-different/563702/

If there is no such thing as a 'female brain' or a 'male brain' then there is certainly no evidence for 'being born in the wrong body".
 
any man becoming a woman and then entering into women's sport is wrong end of
imagine a transgender rugby player who wants to compete in women's rugby at some point its likely some one will get hurt due to the disparity in physical attributes

And its not only physical either take darts, snooker etc women can't compete with men at the highest level in these sports where the physical aspects don't count for whatever reason, if a top 50 darts player male decided to become a transgender woman he would be in the top 10 in no time in the women's game
 
Blue&whitestripes said:
I'll start by asking you "Why shouldn't there be a blanket ban on transgender athletes?"

I can't agree that because there aren't many trans athletes at the moment, it's not a problem. We should have the evidence first and only then, if it is forthcoming, allow them to compete against females. Why should women's sport be an experimental test ground? Why should women risk losing team places, medals, honours, records, even sponsorships & careers?
It's illuminating to consider that when Oscar Pistorious wanted to compete in the the Olympics he had to prove that his blades *didn't* give him an advantage. The IOC spent a lot more time & effort on that than they did on the question of including biological males in female sports categories.

As Dr Hilton (https://fairplayforwomen.com/emma_hilton/) summarised about the IOC policy :
  • Of the papers returned in my systematic search, only 11 contained any data most relevant to sporting performance.
  • Only 4 of these contained any direct measurements of performance.
  • Only 3 of these were good science.
  • Only 2 of these were available to the IOC in 2015, both of which demonstrate that transwomen retain far superior muscular architecture and strength that would favour competitive advantage, and neither of which supports the premise that transwomen can be fairly included in female sports.

My position is that until and unless there is categorical evidence that transwomen retain none of their puberty-induced physiological advantages over females, then there should be no transgender athletes in female sport. I don't think that is what the evidence will prove, and in any case hormones won't reduce limb length, heart/blood & lung capacity or change the Q angle - all of which have significant advantages in sports. Extra leg strength might not help a golfer - but extra arm strength might, as might the (on average) longer arm length which provides greater leverage. (There's info here about average drive length between players of different capabilities and between Mmale & female https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2018...-you-hit-golf-ball-distance-report-has-answer)

I read that article from Ross at the time. You may not be aware that in response to it being quoted recently, he had the following to say:




I particularly agree with his second tweet of the three: "the biological principles for separation into men’s and women’s categories in sport are so strong that to overturn it requires exceptional evidence"
Click to expand...

Maybe they should all be banned then. What I'm saying is that after serious scientific study it turns out that the extra 10% lung capacity, 1.72 cm longer humerus and better Q angle makes no difference to the competivity of the Surrey Crown Green Bowls League then they could maybe let trans women play.
Would you also ban all transgender male athletes regardless of sporting discipline?
 
[QUOTE="Skip Donoghue, post: 12022781, member: 21227" its not only physical either take darts, snooker etc women can't compete with men at the highest level in these sports where the physical aspects don't count for whatever reason, if a top 50 darts player male decided to become a transgender woman he would be in the top 10 in no time in the women's game[/QUOTE]
Prove it.
 
danielwood5 said:
[QUOTE="Skip Donoghue, post: 12022781, member: 21227" its not only physical either take darts, snooker etc women can't compete with men at the highest level in these sports where the physical aspects don't count for whatever reason, if a top 50 darts player male decided to become a transgender woman he would be in the top 10 in no time in the women's game
Click to expand...
Prove it.[/QUOTE]
I don't need to you will have to take my word for it
you tell me why no elite woman darts or snooker player has or never will win the male version of the world championship, I'd happily bet you every penny I have that it won't happen in my life time
And that isnt down to any physical attributes is just down to men and women being different
 
Skip Donoghue said:
Prove it.
Click to expand...
I don't need to you will have to take my word for it
you tell me why no elite woman darts or snooker player has or never will win the male version of the world championship, I'd happily bet you every penny I have that it won't happen in my life time
And that isnt down to any physical attributes is just down to men and women being different[/QUOTE]
But this conversation is about transgender women, you stated that a man who is top 50 at darts would transition and become a top 10 instantly and that's a completely different thing to what you are stating here. I agree that until now there has never been a female darts or snooker player that either has or probably will win a male championship but that isn't what you initially said.
 
danielwood5 said:
What I'm saying is that after serious scientific study it turns out that the extra 10% lung capacity, 1.72 cm longer humerus and better Q angle makes no difference to the competivity of the Surrey Crown Green Bowls League then they could maybe let trans women play.
Click to expand...

You are obviously unaware that Crown Green Bowling already has mixed sex teams. But this is a silly comparator - this is not a sport where strength and/or speed are paramount.


danielwood5 said:
Would you also ban all transgender male athletes regardless of sporting discipline?
Click to expand...
When you say "transgender males", do you mean transmen, ie biological females? If so, then no. But when talking about those sporting disciplines where strength and/or speed are paramount, the fact is that even on testosterone (when they would have levels which, if they competed as their actual sex would have them banned) they are extremely unlikely to be competitive with their like-for-like male peers, by which I mean someone of the same age, with the same number of years training under their belt. Transmen are not going to enter male sports and start taking places from men, setting records or, in team sports posing a potential safety risk to the other players.
 
@danielwood5
QUOTE]
But this conversation is about transgender women, you stated that a man who is top 50 at darts would transition and become a top 10 instantly and that's a completely different thing to what you are stating here. I agree that until now there has never been a female darts or snooker player that either has or probably will win a male championship but that isn't what you initially said.[/QUOTE]


But it still doesn't take away from the fact that any man deciding to compete in women's sport no matter what will be at an advantage transgender or not and that's what this is about and in my opinion a top 50 male dart player who decides to become female would be a top 10 women's player
And I base it on the fact the 50th best male player in the world currently has a 3 dart average of 91, and then you consider the average at the womens world championships was 75 I think there's a very strong chance of the 50th best man based on his average will be in a strong position to crack the women's top 10 and the women don't play as many sets as the men which should help when it comes to averages

The current women's world champ Lisa Ashton (who has recorded a 3 dart average of 98 by the way which is excellent) was invited to play in the last men's PDC world championship and was knocked out in the 1st round by a low ranking male player called Jan Decker who's current world ranking is 43

I hope this clears it up for you and is why I feel a transgender man is at an advantage even in the game of darts

Oh and I didn't say he would be top 10 instantly by the way
 
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