Transgender Sportswomen in Sport

[Mon Autre]

I've said this in a matter of fact way because it is a fact.

So when you state....


You may well be right, people might believe otherwise, maybe even lots of people, but then lots of people believe the earth is flat, abortion is a sin against god, that black people are inferior to white people, but that is a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact.

So when you state....


If facts matter I'm afraid there is.

I honestly don't believe you can say factually one way or another that a transgender woman does or doesn't have "the right" to, for example, use a women's toilet. I don't even know why toilets with locking doors are categorised in those terms any way and it also frustrates me that transgender women are the ones always having to defend their position on this when men manage quite well to infiltrate these spaces and harass women without punishment and without having to pretend to be transgender.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

I honestly don't believe you can say factually one way or another that a transgender woman does or doesn't have "the right" to, for example, use a women's toilet. I don't even know why toilets with locking doors are categorised in those terms any way and it also frustrates me that transgender women are the ones always having to defend their position on this when men manage quite well to infiltrate these spaces and harass women without punishment and without having to pretend to be transgender.

Prisons and women's shelters are the two that I've heard discussed as issues. As I mentioned earlier, the issue isn't so much with genuinely transgender women. It's that if you make it as easy as declaring that you're a particular gender to get access to women's spaces, then it's easier for men who identify as men to access them unchallenged by claiming to be transgender when they're actually not. I have no problem with someone who is a transgender woman and has been transgender woman for years being put in a women's prison. The issue is those who suddenly come out as transgender when they get convicted. Sorry, but I'm slightly more dubious about their claims.

The same with sport. Countries have run entire drugs programmes to win gold medals at the Olympics. If it just comes down to allowing people to self declare, or even to legally register, do we really think the likes of Russia wouldn't simply enter a team of men in the women's events?

 

[Dubai Blue]

The sporting discussion is much trickier for me. I actually don't know what the solution is but I just don't like how these conversations can turn quite cruel and undignified quite quickly. I'm definitely of the opinion however that the sporting implications of transgenderism take up too much of the discussion when it comes to the rights of transgender people across society on the whole.

I think the author Ashley McGuire addressed this perfectly in the MMA article that was posted earlier:

"For the tiny percentage of people who experience gender dysphoria, we should have nothing but compassion. We should do everything we can to help them and protect their dignity, but we don’t need to overturn biologically defined sex differences to do so."

As you say, there are two different branches to this discussion: the integration of transgender people in society and the integration of them within sport.

 

[shevtheblue]

There has already been a transgender MMA fighter. Fallon Fox fractured their opponent's skull
https://www.bjjee.com/articles/tran...getting-too-politically-correct-with-reality/

Joe Rogan talked out about her and how it wasn't fair for her to be fighting women, he got so much abuse for it. Also funny that Fallon Fox lost a few fights too, but it's undeniable that the physical differences between a man and a woman make it so dangerous when it comes to a sport where fighters are literally smashing their bones against another.

In America this has become the norm, there are numerous news stories about boys that have transitioned to girls and are breaking every school record that has ever existed. To prove the point, a comedian (at least i think he's a comedian, but he is just a kind of regular guy who looks after himself) created a view of him beating olympic lifting records set my females and he was beating them with ease.

IIRC, Martina Navratilova has also spoken out about this and how it is making a mockery of sports.

 

[Mon Autre]

Prisons and women's shelters are the two that I've heard discussed as issues. As I mentioned earlier, the issue isn't so much with genuinely transgender women. It's that if you make it as easy as declaring that you're a particular gender to get access to women's spaces, then it's easier for men who identify as men to access them unchallenged by claiming to be transgender when they're actually not. I have no problem with someone who is a transgender woman and has been transgender woman for years being put in a women's prison. The issue is those who suddenly come out as transgender when they get convicted. Sorry, but I'm slightly more dubious about their claims.

The same with sport. Countries have run entire drugs programmes to win gold medals at the Olympics. If it just comes down to allowing people to self declare, or even to legally register, do we really think the likes of Russia wouldn't simply enter a team of men in the women's events?

The prison debate I find a bit frustrating too though, as I think it mostly centres around Karen White. That should never have been allowed to happen and was a major fuck up on the part of the prison service. It does also bother me that people who previously had no views on the safety of female prisoners suddenly have a view on this. They haven't spoken out about male prison officers posing a sexual threat to female inmates (or female prison officers for that matter). There is no discussion about the fact female inmates can also pose a threat to other female inmates. That discussion should be part of a wider discussion on keeping females in the prison system safe full stop.

 

[SWP's back]

I honestly don't believe you can say factually one way or another that a transgender woman does or doesn't have "the right" to, for example, use a women's toilet. I don't even know why toilets with locking doors are categorised in those terms any way and it also frustrates me that transgender women are the ones always having to defend their position on this when men manage quite well to infiltrate these spaces and harass women without punishment and without having to pretend to be transgender.

When fumble refers to women’s space, I believe he was referring to the space on a team. So when the trans woman in the OP plays for England, she’s depriving a biological female of that space.

He’s not mentioned toilets at all. Only you have.

 

[Blue&whitestripes]

The sporting discussion is much trickier for me. I actually don't know what the solution is but I just don't like how these conversations can turn quite cruel and undignified quite quickly. I'm definitely of the opinion however that the sporting implications of transgenderism take up too much of the discussion when it comes to the rights of transgender people across society on the whole.

(I think) Perfect Fumble was widening the discussion to female spaces beyond sport. People will have varying views on this but I just don't think it's great to be speaking in the kind of absolute terms that Perfect Fumble was.

With regards to the example given with the cricket, I don't think there's enough information in the story to make an informed judgement on what's going on there. Is this person getting better scores in the women's game because they have a biological advantage, or is it because they've stepped into a league where the overall standard is much lower due to the fact historically the women's game hasn't been as encouraged or resourced as much as the men's? Did this person play and train at higher standard before they transitioned? Perhaps they are better because they had access to better training and facilities at an early age when they were living as a male. The women's game seems to be growing quite quickly now and the wider cricketing community seems quite receptive to the women's game from what I can see. I don't know loads about cricket but i do have a male friend who plays to a pretty high standard and he's told me in the past that it's not beyond the realms of possibility that you could see a woman batting alongside men in teams as so much of it is about concentration and technique rather than just strength. Would be interesting to see if you see variances like this in a world where the women's game had the same level of funding and prominence as the men's. Would also be interested to know if there are any biologically female players matching those scores. It isn't uncommon to see bigger disparities in sport where the overall standard is lower. i.e you'll get more football games going into double figures at amateur level than higher up the leagues.

You asked "Is this person getting better scores in the women's game because they have a biological advantage," to which the answer is a resounding yes. Until a year or two ago, Maxine played for the equivalent men's team, where their batting average was much less. I don't know all the rules of cricket, but I do know that women's teams play with a smaller, lighter ball and that men can bowl significantly faster than women. Not only are they stronger (& using a heavier ball) but they have, as a rule, longer arms than women which boosts the force with which they can throw the ball.

There is a good reason why women's & men's sports are sex-segregated: it is to make competition as fair as possible. It's the same reason boxing has weight classes and every sport has kids & adults separated.

As for your comments about 'better training and facilities', well yes - better training & facilities & more funding will help women improve but they will never bring women to the level of men who have intrinsic advantages once past puberty.

One example: in 1988 FloJo set the women's 100m record - which still stands. "In 2017 alone, the last full season of races, 744 senior males ran 100m faster than 10.49s for a combined total of 2825 runs" There are schoolboys who can run faster than the women's world record holder.
https://fondofbeetles.wordpress.com...r-stronger-why-we-must-protect-female-sports/

Between men's & women's sports there is a consistent 10-12% gap in "best" (this rises to 30% is many weightlifting categories)

It's not better or more training, it's not more funding, and it's certainly not "try harder" (which I've seen some people espouse): it's biology.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I honestly don't believe you can say factually one way or another that a transgender woman does or doesn't have "the right" to, for example, use a women's toilet.

Correct me if I'm wrong but 85% of trans women have their block and tackle, some of whom considers themselves lesbians, so I'll let you join the dots.

(I think) Perfect Fumble was widening the discussion to female spaces beyond sport. People will have varying views on this but I just don't think it's great to be speaking in the kind of absolute terms that Perfect Fumble was.

Of course you don't, trans women on the other hand are always open for a frank and honest debate....

Or perhaps not.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

The prison debate I find a bit frustrating too though, as I think it mostly centres around Karen White. That should never have been allowed to happen and was a major fuck up on the part of the prison service. It does also bother me that people who previously had no views on the safety of female prisoners suddenly have a view on this. They haven't spoken out about male prison officers posing a sexual threat to female inmates (or female prison officers for that matter). There is no discussion about the fact female inmates can also pose a threat to other female inmates. That discussion should be part of a wider discussion on keeping females in the prison system safe full stop.

Well this is always the problem with any debate like this. There will always be bigots who have no interest in actually improving things using it as an excuse to attack a group they don't like. It was the same thing with discussing something like Islam, where we could have a legitimate discussion about something like halal food, but it is easily hijacked by people who have no interest in animal welfare and just want to use it as an excuse to attack Muslims. That some people are not genuine in their arguments doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate issues that can be discussed though.

 

[Blue&whitestripes]

Joe Rogan talked out about her and how it wasn't fair for her to be fighting women, he got so much abuse for it. Also funny that Fallon Fox lost a few fights too, but it's undeniable that the physical differences between a man and a woman make it so dangerous when it comes to a sport where fighters are literally smashing their bones against another.

In America this has become the norm, there are numerous news stories about boys that have transitioned to girls and are breaking every school record that has ever existed. To prove the point, a comedian (at least i think he's a comedian, but he is just a kind of regular guy who looks after himself) created a view of him beating olympic lifting records set my females and he was beating them with ease.

IIRC, Martina Navratilova has also spoken out about this and how it is making a mockery of sports.

I referred to CeCe Telfer in an earlier post. Here's another example.