feedmpenzaandhewillscore
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Trickling down or plunging down? The pound reaches its record lowest level in history, investors are spooked. We are basically fucked for the foreseeable as a country.
Trickling Down!
- Thread starter Eebo
- Start date
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader
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Marwood is on it as type - he's having a bit of bovver over the send button!
BlueMoonAcrossThePond
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Trickle down does have a (very small) amount of merit - I suppose that some very rich person who gets even more money might invest that money to the benefit of society.
Trouble is - that very rich person might well make unwise investments or refuse to invest when the economy looks poor.
The alternative - giving the money to the middle class and below - seems like a much better alternative if one wants to stimulate the economy and promote growth. Those on the margin - especially - will, mostly, spend whatever money their given on essentials, seeking value for their expenditures. Bottom up rather than top down seems better to me.
Trickle down economics is just an excuse to to give more money to the rich, hence the popularity amongst right wing and Tory press. It is complete and utter bollocks and completely discredited.
It's as sensible as saying that if you want to help that homeless person sleeping rough in a city centre doorway, the best way to do it is to go to the cash machine and draw out £100 and then drive to the poshest part of town and shove it through the letterbox of the biggest mansion you can find.
Grassland Blue
Well-Known Member
The question which needs addressing is;
When has a person got enough wealth?
For example why isn't one home enough?
How much money do you need in reserve to protect your lifestyle?
We, at or near the bottom of the pile, would probably consider £1 million (or even less) as quite enough.
Some people would consider that to be chickenfeed.
Others will never have enough.
Should the state make the decision as to how much is enough, as opposed to the individual?
Just putting it out there.
When has a person got enough wealth?
For example why isn't one home enough?
How much money do you need in reserve to protect your lifestyle?
We, at or near the bottom of the pile, would probably consider £1 million (or even less) as quite enough.
Some people would consider that to be chickenfeed.
Others will never have enough.
Should the state make the decision as to how much is enough, as opposed to the individual?
Just putting it out there.
S
S
Summerbuzz
Guest
If people like me spend money in the local economy, it doesn't count. Because we more or less need to spend it.
If a well off person spends it - it counts. Because they might not have spent it they might have held on to it.
For example, my carpets badly need replacing. There's a hundred others in the same situation. That amounts to fifty grand going to carpet fitters. But so what? It's obviously not helping the economy.
No. What I and others need to do is shampoo them yet again with some dire chemicals manufactured by a foreign company and sold in my local supermarket, who make 10%. And wear shoes around the house.
Then, that 50 grand can be relocated to the well off who are buying a summer home in France, so they can spend it on a really nice carpet. If they like. Or they could bury the money in the back garden. Point is, it's not as neccessary. That's what makes it economically valid. The less value is derived for others, the better. Common sense, really. Otherwise, it's all just 'value' going round and round, and money would be associated with people meeting their needs - rather than actual economics.
Either way, obviously, you see the difference. Giving to them is the only way that 50 grand will ever help them. I mean, help the economy. I mean. Help local economies.
Not like me. I'd - and people like me - would just fritter it on luxury 'essentials' like my carpet, and waste it all by benefitting from heating savings, better health and wellbeing after my heart attack. No benefit to anyone, ever, in that lot. I mean, what about poorer people who would spend their money on their kids, good diet, safe nurturing environment, books, trips, etc... seriously, people like that helping them grow up as strong and well adjusted as possible? How fucking selfish is that? Total waste of money. Next thing you know, they'd end up at a grammar school or whatever, competing for middle class jobs. Absolute disaster. I mean. In economic terms.
If a well off person spends it - it counts. Because they might not have spent it they might have held on to it.
For example, my carpets badly need replacing. There's a hundred others in the same situation. That amounts to fifty grand going to carpet fitters. But so what? It's obviously not helping the economy.
No. What I and others need to do is shampoo them yet again with some dire chemicals manufactured by a foreign company and sold in my local supermarket, who make 10%. And wear shoes around the house.
Then, that 50 grand can be relocated to the well off who are buying a summer home in France, so they can spend it on a really nice carpet. If they like. Or they could bury the money in the back garden. Point is, it's not as neccessary. That's what makes it economically valid. The less value is derived for others, the better. Common sense, really. Otherwise, it's all just 'value' going round and round, and money would be associated with people meeting their needs - rather than actual economics.
Either way, obviously, you see the difference. Giving to them is the only way that 50 grand will ever help them. I mean, help the economy. I mean. Help local economies.
Not like me. I'd - and people like me - would just fritter it on luxury 'essentials' like my carpet, and waste it all by benefitting from heating savings, better health and wellbeing after my heart attack. No benefit to anyone, ever, in that lot. I mean, what about poorer people who would spend their money on their kids, good diet, safe nurturing environment, books, trips, etc... seriously, people like that helping them grow up as strong and well adjusted as possible? How fucking selfish is that? Total waste of money. Next thing you know, they'd end up at a grammar school or whatever, competing for middle class jobs. Absolute disaster. I mean. In economic terms.
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ZenHalfTimeCrock
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Can’t help but notice the strong resemblances between Trickle-Down economics and Prosperity Theology.
PT is a form of Christian theology that has been around in the USA since the 80’s, one that has more recently been making inroads into the African Pentecostal movement over here in the UK and in Africa itself.
The basic idea is that God wants people to be rich, so having the outward trappings of wealth is an indication of divine grace and favour.
What the wealthy leaders of PT movements (who often make ostentatious displays of that wealth) tend to do is solicit donations from the frequently dirt poor, most vulnerable and gullible members of their congregations, on the understanding that the faith that they are expressing in doing so will result in miracles of wealth and health (if they are also ill) being showered on them.
Of course, if nothing happens, that simply means that their faith must be deficient in some way, a problem that can be rectified through further donations.
The point is that there is no room for doubt here. Any financial luck that comes your way is attributable to the grace of God and if there are no tangible results then more zeal and devotion are required.
A similar act of faith, or what can also be referred to as ‘magical thinking’, is also demanded of the poorest by the advocates of supply-side economics, which to all intents and purposes resembles a religion, in the sense that there is no evidence whatsoever that it has ever worked, so it is a macroeconomic theory that must also be predicated exclusively on nothing more than fervent belief, in this instance that the rich rather than God will bestow a measure of wealth upon those beneath them in the socio-economic pecking order.
And again, if nothing seems to happen, then that is simply a sign that further austerity and self-sacrifice on the part of the poorest are what is needed.
Needless to say, both systems are exploitative and repellent, and both arguably serve as exemplars of religion as an opiate.
PT is a form of Christian theology that has been around in the USA since the 80’s, one that has more recently been making inroads into the African Pentecostal movement over here in the UK and in Africa itself.
The basic idea is that God wants people to be rich, so having the outward trappings of wealth is an indication of divine grace and favour.
What the wealthy leaders of PT movements (who often make ostentatious displays of that wealth) tend to do is solicit donations from the frequently dirt poor, most vulnerable and gullible members of their congregations, on the understanding that the faith that they are expressing in doing so will result in miracles of wealth and health (if they are also ill) being showered on them.
Of course, if nothing happens, that simply means that their faith must be deficient in some way, a problem that can be rectified through further donations.
The point is that there is no room for doubt here. Any financial luck that comes your way is attributable to the grace of God and if there are no tangible results then more zeal and devotion are required.
A similar act of faith, or what can also be referred to as ‘magical thinking’, is also demanded of the poorest by the advocates of supply-side economics, which to all intents and purposes resembles a religion, in the sense that there is no evidence whatsoever that it has ever worked, so it is a macroeconomic theory that must also be predicated exclusively on nothing more than fervent belief, in this instance that the rich rather than God will bestow a measure of wealth upon those beneath them in the socio-economic pecking order.
And again, if nothing seems to happen, then that is simply a sign that further austerity and self-sacrifice on the part of the poorest are what is needed.
Needless to say, both systems are exploitative and repellent, and both arguably serve as exemplars of religion as an opiate.
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I read this yesterday and it's bonkers:
National Grid in urgent bid to import more gas – after exporting record amount
Bosses have put out a tender for extra gas as winter draws in
www.telegraph.co.uk
"National Grid is racing to bolster gas reserves ahead of winter, amid concerns Britain will not be able to import enough from Europe as Russia’s war in Ukraine rattles markets.
Bosses have put out a tender for extra gas to help manage any short-term disruption, as cuts to Russian supplies to the continent raise concerns about energy shortages as the cold weather hits.
Craig James, head of national control at National Grid, told industry that to “secure the network across a series of fault potentials or supply conditions, there's a requirement to take out extra operating margins of gas".
He noted strong ongoing demand for gas exports from Britain to Europe and added, “we also think there is a lower likelihood of interconnector flows from continental Europe to the UK across the winter period”. Interconnectors are subsea pipes or cables that can supply gas and electricity from the continent at times of peak demand.
Mr James’ comments are an ominous sign for the winter ahead, given Britain typically needs to import some gas from Europe over winter to help meet its own needs for heating and power stations.
Britain has exported a record amount of gas to Europe since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine began, effectively acting as a “gas bridge” for supplies from the US and other countries to the continent.
During winter Britain can normally attract gas back from the continent through higher prices, but there is no guarantee that will happen this year if supplies are stretched elsewhere.
It comes as preparations for winter are being stepped up across industry, in what is set to be a major test of resilience in the face of lost Russian supplies to the continent.
This week, National Grid is set to publish forecasts for both electricity and gas supplies over winter. They are expected to be “more robust” than preliminary forecasts, which triggered concerns about over-reliance on electricity imports from the continent. “I think we need to be realistic,” said one industry source.
Suppliers, generators and network owners are understood to be currently testing their processes to see how they would cope if gas supplies fell short. “It’s all being taken very seriously,” said another industry figure.
National Grid's critical stress tests mimicking a gas supply crisis were delayed following the death of the Queen, but started last week and are set to run into this week. Separately, businesses are being offered payments to agree to cut or shift energy usage to help manage supplies.
Britain imports little gas directly from Russia but cuts in Kremlin supplies to Europe have wreaked havoc in markets worldwide, pushing up competition for scarce global supplies.
Soaring prices in Britain have pushed households and businesses’ energy bills up three-fold or more, forcing the Government to step in and subsidise bills at an estimated cost to taxpayers of £60bn over the next six months.
Despite the supply cuts, Europe has managed to fill its gas storage sites to more than 80pc after cutting usage. Eye-catching examples of power saving include Paris turning off the lights on the Eiffel Tower earlier than usual, among other measures.
Success on storage has put Europe in a better position than feared, but it remains vulnerable. Damage to the Nord Stream pipelines built to bring gas from Russia to Europe destroyed hopes Nord Stream 1 could be brought back into service, and triggered suspicions of Russian sabotage.
The Telegraph revealed this week that Britain has launched an urgent security review of North Sea energy pipelines amid fears that other energy infrastructure could be vulnerable.
Speaking to an industry forum late last month, Mr James said National Grid was “not forecasting any particular shortage over the winter” but felt the need to review margins given the “change in supply patterns”.
Britain gets most of its gas supplies from Norway, the North Sea and shipments of liquified natural gas from around the world, as well as some via the pipelines to continental Europe.
Most of this is traded directly between producers and users. However, National Grid also secures some supplies in advance to help manage short-term disruption.
This can include gas in underground storage or at liquefied natural gas terminals, or asking gas-fired power stations to cut their usage.
It typically gets this in place well ahead of winter. It currently has about 870 gigawatt-hours booked for 2022/23, but has decided to try and secure a further 75 gigawatt-hours. The tender is set to close on October 3. National Grid declined to comment."
west didsblue
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Shouldn’t this be on the gas and electricity thread? Not sure that gas trickles down gas pipes.I read this yesterday and it's bonkers:
National Grid in urgent bid to import more gas – after exporting record amount
Bosses have put out a tender for extra gas as winter draws in
"National Grid is racing to bolster gas reserves ahead of winter, amid concerns Britain will not be able to import enough from Europe as Russia’s war in Ukraine rattles markets.
Bosses have put out a tender for extra gas to help manage any short-term disruption, as cuts to Russian supplies to the continent raise concerns about energy shortages as the cold weather hits.
Craig James, head of national control at National Grid, told industry that to “secure the network across a series of fault potentials or supply conditions, there's a requirement to take out extra operating margins of gas".
He noted strong ongoing demand for gas exports from Britain to Europe and added, “we also think there is a lower likelihood of interconnector flows from continental Europe to the UK across the winter period”. Interconnectors are subsea pipes or cables that can supply gas and electricity from the continent at times of peak demand.
Mr James’ comments are an ominous sign for the winter ahead, given Britain typically needs to import some gas from Europe over winter to help meet its own needs for heating and power stations.
Britain has exported a record amount of gas to Europe since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine began, effectively acting as a “gas bridge” for supplies from the US and other countries to the continent.
During winter Britain can normally attract gas back from the continent through higher prices, but there is no guarantee that will happen this year if supplies are stretched elsewhere.
It comes as preparations for winter are being stepped up across industry, in what is set to be a major test of resilience in the face of lost Russian supplies to the continent.
This week, National Grid is set to publish forecasts for both electricity and gas supplies over winter. They are expected to be “more robust” than preliminary forecasts, which triggered concerns about over-reliance on electricity imports from the continent. “I think we need to be realistic,” said one industry source.
Suppliers, generators and network owners are understood to be currently testing their processes to see how they would cope if gas supplies fell short. “It’s all being taken very seriously,” said another industry figure.
National Grid's critical stress tests mimicking a gas supply crisis were delayed following the death of the Queen, but started last week and are set to run into this week. Separately, businesses are being offered payments to agree to cut or shift energy usage to help manage supplies.
Britain imports little gas directly from Russia but cuts in Kremlin supplies to Europe have wreaked havoc in markets worldwide, pushing up competition for scarce global supplies.
Soaring prices in Britain have pushed households and businesses’ energy bills up three-fold or more, forcing the Government to step in and subsidise bills at an estimated cost to taxpayers of £60bn over the next six months.
Despite the supply cuts, Europe has managed to fill its gas storage sites to more than 80pc after cutting usage. Eye-catching examples of power saving include Paris turning off the lights on the Eiffel Tower earlier than usual, among other measures.
Success on storage has put Europe in a better position than feared, but it remains vulnerable. Damage to the Nord Stream pipelines built to bring gas from Russia to Europe destroyed hopes Nord Stream 1 could be brought back into service, and triggered suspicions of Russian sabotage.
The Telegraph revealed this week that Britain has launched an urgent security review of North Sea energy pipelines amid fears that other energy infrastructure could be vulnerable.
Speaking to an industry forum late last month, Mr James said National Grid was “not forecasting any particular shortage over the winter” but felt the need to review margins given the “change in supply patterns”.
Britain gets most of its gas supplies from Norway, the North Sea and shipments of liquified natural gas from around the world, as well as some via the pipelines to continental Europe.
Most of this is traded directly between producers and users. However, National Grid also secures some supplies in advance to help manage short-term disruption.
This can include gas in underground storage or at liquefied natural gas terminals, or asking gas-fired power stations to cut their usage.
It typically gets this in place well ahead of winter. It currently has about 870 gigawatt-hours booked for 2022/23, but has decided to try and secure a further 75 gigawatt-hours. The tender is set to close on October 3. National Grid declined to comment."
Anyway what’s bonkers about it?
Blue Maverick
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Why don’t they up the personal allowance for everyone,including the rich to £15k, that puts £1000s in the hands of 10s of millions, not £50k in the hands of 600k. We’d go spend it in the economy and that boosts it, or am I missing something?