Easy to forget that only a few years ago the city team coach was attacked by Liverpool fans going into Anfield smashing windows and threatening the safety of players. They didn't arrest or identify a single person who attacked it and the whole thing was televised live, they don't like it when it's them eh?I’d say “getting in successfully” may be a different figure to “tickets presented/found in possession of”, plus, doesn’t account for the ticketless jibbers either, so I’ll wait for something more concrete on that before I go crowing if I was them (oh imagine that !).
This did make me laugh though :-
“ I’ve read a number of stories of absolutely horrific experiences leaving the stadium as well – crimes being committed, muggings taking place. Nobody should experience what our fans experienced both before or after the match.”
Par for the course at Anfield back in the day, can’t imagine that much has changed, they should be more than desensitised to that type of thing by now anyway.
At the end of the day they had 3 hours to get everyone in from when the turnstiles opened up until kick-off. Granted that eventually turned into 3 hours and 36 minutes but when you think about it that's not a lot of time if things start going wrong and the turnstiles shut down because some pricks are trying to scan in on fake tickets. Add in that not everyone with a fake getting refused entry is going to go away quietly and many will kick off about it, plus those with genuine tickets maybe not getting in because some fucker has scanned a fake of theirs in before them which in turn leads to those genuine ticket holders booting off (and in their case at least that's understandable), and suddenly the whole setup can go tits up.Its distinctly possible that 3000 fakes out of 20000 tickets would cause chaos at the entry points.
Its easy to point fingers at staff and stewards etc but when the onus is on getting people through quickly it wouldn’t have been an easy situation to handle if more than 1 out of every 10 tickets failed to work.
For those saying 40k is perfectly reasonable, how did someone set up and distribute tickets to something the size of a small festival or stadium sized concert without UEFA figuring it out. 10 people in Paris shifting 4k a day without their own extensive queues? It's not possible. Or City need to get these guys in the club to work the matchday ticket office.Exactly. And those suggesting that 40,000 fake tickets is an exaggeration should ask themselves why organised criminals, in possession of the printing technology to reproduce the tickets, a huge demand (not least from people already committed to travel) and the ability to shift them on in a short period of time for cash, would limit themselves to a few thousand rather than produce as many as they could "on an industrial scale".
I don't think the French have said anywhere that there were 40,000 fakes. What they have said is 30,000-40,000 either with fakes or no tickets rocked up. Whatever the true figure, those shifting them wouldn't have shifted them all in Paris on the day of the game. Many would've changed hands before fans even travelled out thereFor those saying 40k is perfectly reasonable, how did someone set up and distribute tickets to something the size of a small festival or stadium sized concert without UEFA figuring it out. 10 people in Paris shifting 4k a day without their own extensive queues? It's not possible. Or City need to get these guys in the club to work the matchday ticket office.
Totally agree, they did what needed to be done before anyone was injured.I’m not sure they did respond disproportionately. Certainly not, if their actions averted even a minor disaster.
For those saying 40k is perfectly reasonable, how did someone set up and distribute tickets to something the size of a small festival or stadium sized concert without UEFA figuring it out. 10 people in Paris shifting 4k a day without their own extensive queues? It's not possible. Or City need to get these guys in the club to work the matchday ticket office.
The post I was responding to claimed it was a reasonable assumption. I'm pointing out that handwaving "organized crime" for 40k fake tickets doesn't just require printing but vast distribution via post or collection. Dozens and hundreds of people advertising, posting, selling. It's not reasonable. Even if you believe the scousers are 100% to blame, unfairly imo, if you believe there were 40k fakes doing the rounds then you'll believe anything. Anyone who has worked in festivals and events will tell you it's a huge undertaking to get the tickets out into the world. There'd be mountains more evidence than the same two or three screenshots doing the rounds.I don't think the French have said anywhere that there were 40,000 fakes. What they have said is 30,000-40,000 either with fakes or no tickets rocked up. Whatever the true figure, those shifting them wouldn't have shifted them all in Paris on the day of the game. Many would've changed hands before fans even travelled out there
Drug dealers do it with years of networks and 100s and 1000s of people, many of whom are interrupted, arrested or murdered along the way with scores of evidence that it has happened.That's like asking how drug dealers distribute kilos of cocaine. The producers, organised criminals, manufacture in bulk, sell to middle men who sell to those who sell on the streets. In fact, it's easier because it is less policed.
And this wasn't just in Paris, it was going on from the second the first ticket got copied which, I suspect, was the second the genuine tickets arrived in Liverpool.
It doesn't take a lot to cause chaos. It's like when you're on the motorway in a traffic jam for no obvious reason. A lot of the time it can be just 1 car breaking too hard that causes a butterfly effect. If a large number of the stalls are not letting people through due to fake tickets even for a brief period it would be mayhem.Its distinctly possible that 3000 fakes out of 20000 tickets would cause chaos at the entry points.
Its easy to point fingers at staff and stewards etc but when the onus is on getting people through quickly it wouldn’t have been an easy situation to handle if more than 1 out of every 10 tickets failed to work.
Apparently both clubs were offered either paper OR electronic ticketing.
Madrid chose electronic, the dippers chose paper…
I’d say “getting in successfully” may be a different figure to “tickets presented/found in possession of”, plus, doesn’t account for the ticketless jibbers either, so I’ll wait for something more concrete on that before I go crowing if I was them (oh imagine that !).
This did make me laugh though :-
“ I’ve read a number of stories of absolutely horrific experiences leaving the stadium as well – crimes being committed, muggings taking place. Nobody should experience what our fans experienced both before or after the match.”
Par for the course at Anfield back in the day, can’t imagine that much has changed, they should be more than desensitised to that type of thing by now anyway.
Anyone who has worked in festivals and events will tell you it's a huge undertaking to get the tickets out into the world. There'd be mountains more evidence than the same two or three screenshots doing the rounds.
Yeah, I'm not buying into the 40k fakes idea to be perfectly honest. But I've no doubt there were more than enough doing the rounds to cause significant issues in terns of getting in and from a safety perspective.The post I was responding to claimed it was a reasonable assumption. I'm pointing out that handwaving "organized crime" for 40k fake tickets doesn't just require printing but vast distribution via post or collection. Dozens and hundreds of people advertising, posting, selling. It's not reasonable. Even if you believe the scousers are 100% to blame, unfairly imo, if you believe there were 40k fakes doing the rounds then you'll believe anything. Anyone who has worked in festivals and events will tell you it's a huge undertaking to get the tickets out into the world. There'd be mountains more evidence than the same two or three screenshots doing the rounds.
I'd say anything that runs into several thousand can legitimately be classed as "industrial scale". It doesn't have to be as many as 40,000That's only true if you are doing things legitimately. Anyone who has worked in law enforcement will tell you that bulk producing and selling illicit goods is not the same undertaking.
As for evidence of the scale of fake tickets ? Where are you going to get that ? Anyone with a fake ticket won't come forward because they'd be asked where they got it which leads into areas they won't want to be involved in.
So, applying the specific number of 40k, I'd agree with you. But the "industrial scale" quote may well be true.
Now if I had a suspicious mind ......
Yeah, like I say, even if you believe that there were a few thousand doing the rounds and this is the key thing to focus on, as I think you do, we need to be sensible. From there I'd be interested in what the usual number would be. But totally agree that these will be totally digital in the future, with active, changing QR codes. Which will mean City moved on that this season at the right time, given the grumbles at the start. As I said upthread, I think the report will indicate these were an issue, and Liverpool will need to do more in future, but I'll be interested to see if that really was the main problem. I doubt it, tbh, but happy to be proven wrong.Yeah, I'm not buying into the 40k fakes idea to be perfectly honest. But I've no doubt there were more than enough doing the rounds to cause significant issues in terns of getting in and from a safety perspective.
And I agree that it's not 100% on Liverpool fans to shoulder the blame but if part of what transpired does indeed come down to forged tickets then - even if only for the sake of their own fans buying bona fide tickets - the Liverpool fans responsible and the club should own it and put steps in place to make sure it doesn't happen again, or at least doesn't happen on the same scale again. Going with digital tickets rather than paper tickets would be a good start.
I've not seen the aerial shots but have you considered a fair number may have already been inside?I don't buy the UEFA/French line of 30k+ turning up without tickets or with fakes. The aerial shots of the ground didn't show 30k people milling around outside.