UK far right trouble July/August 24

[Vic]

...

There's also the potential defence of hyperbole to make a point, which again, slightly disappears when people are literally doing what you said they should do. If I watch Jamie Carragher on Sky and then post "someone should give him a slap" you'd be hard pushed to claim that I was genuinely inciting violence against him.

Your incitement was going to be my plea of mitigation.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I get what you're saying, and I think if she'd said it at any other time, she probably would have got a community sentence. But a post encouraging people to burn down a mosque when people were literally trying to burn down hotels of refugees is different from the same post a month earlier when no-one was listening. Similarly, the Islamists got such a huge punishment because it was happening at a time when Islamic terrorist attacks were a very real risk and people were out there committing acts of violence (including murder) across Europe against people who were 'insulting' Islam. When sentencing these kinds of crimes, the likelihood of someone actually doing what the person is inciting is definitely a factor, and it's undoubtedly true that people were willing to do what she was encouraging at that time.

There's also the potential defence of hyperbole to make a point, which again, slightly disappears when people are literally doing what you said they should do. If I watch Jamie Carragher on Sky and then post "someone should give him a slap" you'd be hard pushed to claim that I was genuinely inciting violence against him.

Fair comment, I'm just not comfortable with the judiciary being leant on by politicians which is what appears to have happened in these cases.

 

[BobKowalski]

Fair comment, I'm just not comfortable with the judiciary being leant on by politicians which is what appears to have happened in these cases.

The online incitement and the calls for violence were seen by the State as an attack on the State and the rule of law. Sentencing will reflect that as it always has done.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

The online incitement and the calls for violence were seen by the State as an attack on the State and the rule of law. Sentencing will reflect that as it always has done.

I didn't know that different rules applied. Thanks for replying.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Naive in the extreme, so difficult to control and would be exploited by the unscrupulous. Min wage about 7 years ago was £5.50 an hour, now £11.42 which equates to nearly £24k pa for a 40 hour week.

similarly naive is the concept that people on minimum wage are contracted to do 40hrs pw.

Standard practise in todays workplace is a ltd hrs contract for those jobs offering minimum wage. Most are 16hrs pw or less. Yes you can pick up extra hours as holiday cover for someone or if someone phones in sick but you are contracted only for the 16hrs. Reasons are simple -
1/ lower cost of paid holiday - take a week off (40hr) holiday pay you get is 16hrs pay.
2/ redundancy - statutory entitlement will be based upon average wages you earned for your contracted hours so you cost less to get rid of.
3/ business overheads are lower - employee doesn't earn enough to live then direct them to the State who will make up the shortfall using in work benefits

 

[hammocity]

similarly naive is the concept that people on minimum wage are contracted to do 40hrs pw.

Standard practise in todays workplace is a ltd hrs contract for those jobs offering minimum wage. Most are 16hrs pw or less. Yes you can pick up extra hours as holiday cover for someone or if someone phones in sick but you are contracted only for the 16hrs. Reasons are simple -
1/ lower cost of paid holiday - take a week off (40hr) holiday pay you get is 16hrs pay.
2/ redundancy - statutory entitlement will be based upon average wages you earned for your contracted hours so you cost less to get rid of.
3/ business overheads are lower - employee doesn't earn enough to live then direct them to the State who will make up the shortfall using in work benefits

I'm well aware of the economics, the 40 hours was used as an example, take a day off.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I'm well aware of the economics, the 40 hours was used as an example, take a day off.

you could use realistic examples to make your point and to show you understand that of which you speak

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Fair comment, I'm just not comfortable with the judiciary being leant on by politicians which is what appears to have happened in these cases.

One of the principal roles of the judiciary is to uphold the rule of law and these sentences reflect this, as well as the need for deterrence against repeat offending. I expect the Lord Chief Justice will have sent a message out to the judiciary reminding them of this, without the need for the MoJ to get involved.

You are correct about the importance of an independent judiciary, but never forget they are still part of the establishment.

How could they not be?

 

[threespires]

One of the principal roles of the judiciary is to uphold the rule of law and these sentences reflect this, as well as the need for deterrence against repeat offending. I expect the Lord Chief Justice will have sent a message out to the judiciary reminding them of this, without the need for the MoJ to get involved.

You are correct about the importance of an independent judiciary, but never forget they are still part of the establishment.

How could they not be?

I was going to post something similar albeit from a laypersons perspective.

For quite a few of the people I know in the legal system in various capacities, the primacy of the rule of law is treated at virtually a philosophical/existential level.

If you are going to treat it with contempt expect to have the book thrown at you.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

1/ lower cost of paid holiday - take a week off (40hr) holiday pay you get is 16hrs pay.

Is this actually true? I always thought they had to base in on the amount you actually work, not what it says in your contract. As in an average of the previous X months, whatever that is.

ETA: Yeah just looked it up. Your holiday pay is calculated based on the average of the previous 52 weeks. So you can't have someone on a 16 hour contract, make them work 40, and then only pay them 16 hours when they're on holiday.