UKIP

Damocles said:
Helmet Cole said:
Mike D said:
The same person who's gonna tell you that right wing politics has failed too, and that Hitler was defeated and his politics/ ideologies very much like UKIP are just plain racist and wrong.

Excellent. After nearly 30 pages, and admittedly a few nudges in this direction from myself (without success) some plumb has finally invoked Godwin :-

Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is an argument made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2][non-primary source needed] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler and the Nazis.
Godwin's law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread Reductio ad Hitlerum form.[citation needed] The Reductio ad Hitlerum attempts to refute a view because it has been held by Hitler.[4] The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses, irrespective of whether it is appropriate. Precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.[5]
Although in one of its early forms Godwin's law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[6] the law is now often applied to any threaded online discussion, such as forums, chat rooms and blog comment threads, and has been invoked for the inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches.[7]


I'm surprised it took this long - take a bow Mike D sir, you are truly the voice of reasoned political debate.

This is not Godwin's Law, he is discussing the similarity of a right wing political party holding what he believes to be racist views to a very famous right wing political party holding what he believes to be racist views. The comparison is apt, and Godwin's Law doesn't apply so why you think you're some mastermind trying to provoke people into it I have no idea.

Sorry Damo, I don't agree the comparison is apt, but that's just my own view which I'm prepared to change if shown otherwise. Far from being a mastermind I started this thread because I'm not sure what to make of UKIP as a party. Many of their policies seem reasonable, and arguments against them seem to be personality rather than policy based. I was not trying to provoke a Godwin, but rather acknowledging that I had almost done so myself by comparing Farages' skill as an orator with the late Mr Hitler earlier in the thread.
 
From the April 2010 National Manifesto (<a class="postlink" href="http://www.ukip.org/media/pdf/UKIPmanifesto1304a.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ukip.org/media/pdf/UKIPmanifesto1304a.pdf</a>):
Repeal the 1998 Human Rights Act and withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. In future British courts will not be allowed to appeal to any international treaty or conven- tion that overrides or sets aside the provisions of any statue passed by the UK Parliament

If you value your freedom, that alone should send you running to the hills.

Other highlights include:
Aim to reduce the public sector to the size it was in 1997, cutting many unnecessary quangos and non-jobs over five years. The goal is to exchange two million public sector jobs for one million new skilled jobs in manu- facturing and related services and at least one million additional jobs created as a result of lower personal taxes and reduced business taxation and regulation

BUT at least those 2 million will be able to get a job building the new prisons and nuclear power stations:
1) A 10-year enhanced defence equipment programme with an additional £4bn p.a. on top of the currently-budgeted £8bn p.a.
2) A 25-year programme of building nuclear power stations that will provide Britain with 50% of its future electricity demand. This will cost on average of £3.5bn p.a.
3) A comprehensive programme of flood protection and coastal defences to cost £30bn over 10 years. Some 25% of this money would be spent on highly-exportable pump valves and control equipment

Double prison places through better use of existing prisons and a substantial programme of new prison building. UKIP will also end the scandal of early releases and weak sentencing. This will cost approximately £2bn p.a. in contrast to the cost of crime, estimated by the Home Office at £45bn p.a.

So no need to worry there then and all at the bargain price of an extra £12.5bn p.a on top of what we spend already in those areas.

And for all you naughty boys, this is what waits:

· Ensure sentences mean what they say: life must mean life

· Introduce a ‘three strikes and you’re out’ policy to deal with persistent offenders and make our streets safer for the public

· Withdraw from the European Arrest Warrant scheme which allows innocent British citizens to be summarily extradited, even on offences that do not exist in the UK. We will reintroduce the need to prove the case for extradition before British judges, based on prima facie evidence. UKIP strongly opposes plans for a new European Public Prosecutor

· Allow binding national referenda on controversial public law and order issues that are outside party politics. The public must have the final say.

· Introduce ‘Boot Camps’ for young offenders to stop them spiralling into a life of crime

· Abolish the politically correct and under-per- forming Crown Prosecution Service, returning to local police prosecutions

All of which have been prove to be effective crime deterrents and reduced recidivism, as proven in this Norwegian method of dealing with criminals:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1384308/Norways-controversial-cushy-prison-experiment--catch-UK.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive ... ch-UK.html</a>

We will be really safe though as defence spending is set to increase by 40%, the army to grow by 25%, the TA to double in size, build more warships and increase the Navy back to its 2001 size, reinstate historic regiments (bagsy joining the Hussars!), scrap Trident and replace with American missiles, withdraw from EU operations but stay in NATO and increase the RAF's buying power.

Finally, if you fall ill, don't worry, the NHS will be in safe hands. UKIP believes strongly in the principles of the NHS. They will reduce bureaucracy and introduce County Health Boards (another level of bureaucracy?). Over time, UKIP will replace Hospital, Foundation, NHS Care and Ambulance Service Trusts with equivalent franchises - so like for like but franchises which means commercialisation? Again, they talk about franchising key services in order to bring in private sector efficiency. Generously they will give us vouchers to enable us to opt out of the NHS if we so wish - although the cost of doing this would surely be better served pumping the money into the NHS to improve it so you don't need to opt out? At least Matrons will be making a comeback.

If you've got learning difficulties, have no fear, UKIP will support congregate communities for people like you (just don't mention the "g" word - ghettoisation).

Still, all these efficiencies will ensure we get free eye tests and dental check ups. Sweet!

Tax is going to be cool. National Insurance is getting abolished and a flat 31% tax rate introduced instead, starting at £11.5k - which to be fair is very good. In more good news, employer's NI will be phased out BUT it will be recouped through PAYE, corporation tax and/or sales tax revenue. VAT is going though.

I've given up at this point and can't be arsed reading Education, Welfare, Foreign Policy etc. Everything I've read so far seems to be the output of a Tuesday afternoon brainstorming session following a rather good pub lunch. It all seems to be pipe dreams and fancy with not enough substance as to how it will be paid for and plenty of assumptions such stimuli will inevitably lead to job creation and lead us out of the shit.

As a final point, this is a thread debating UKIP. This is the only manifesto I've read so far so please, no "well what will Cons/Libs/Lab do?" as I don't know.
 
SWP's back said:
Nothing wrong in repealing the HRA.

It's a bit cuddly.
You pays your money and takes your choice. Personally, I think its heart is certainly in the right place and would prefer to keep it.
 
strongbowholic said:
SWP's back said:
Nothing wrong in repealing the HRA.

It's a bit cuddly.
You pays your money and takes your choice. Personally, I think its heart is certainly in the right place and would prefer to keep it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm anti capital punishment and torture but its still a bit fluffy for me.
 
SWP's back said:
Nothing wrong in repealing the HRA.

It's a bit cuddly.

The less law encroaches into our lives the more freedom we have

cuddly
 

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