ULEZ Letter

[East Level 2]

I think there’s a bit of exaggeration there.
The very best you get from an EV is 5 miles/kWh and the cheapest off peak tariff online is 7.5p per unit, so with the most efficient car driving in perfect conditions that would be 50kWh at 7.5p so that would be £3.75. Real life’s not like that though and more realistic usage would be 3 miles per kWh and most people don’t get away with just using those very cheap rates all the time, so for everyday use you’re probably looking at double that. Still cheap though unless you don’t have the off peak tariffs. Without those tariffs, costs are broadly comparable to petrol or diesel with the current price of electricity.

My hybrid cost around 10p per mile so it's cheaper than an EV charged at the standard tariff. And I live in a flat so home charging isn't really practical.

 

[inbetween]

Few points :-)

The discussion was about diesal euro 5 vans so I presumed you were saying if you had an electric vehicle rather than actually owning one so thumbs up on that score.

secondly in terms of pollution, which is the concern, then as I said you getting on a bus won't add pollution as its already on the road. Buses will eventually,(I hope,) be electric or hydrogen.

Thirdly bus travel in Manchester is £2 so hardly expensive(not sure where the £3 you quoted comes from)

And lastly £3 to fully charge a vehicle for 250 miles? Really?

I have a Tesla Model 3 which has 55kWh usable battery. I'm on the overnight rate with Octopus where you get cheap overnight rates of 7.5p/kWh between 11:30pm and 5am. So 55kWh x 7.5p is £4, hmm okay I was a quid out. 55kWh works out at around 250 miles but it depends on how you drive.

As with a petrol you never ever charge an EV from empty so I've never actually paid more than £3 per charge. The only time charging prices are even worth thinking about really are when charging on the more expensive public chargers away from home but that's very rare.

I didn't know the £2 bus price cap existed to be honest but still it's only good if the buses go where you need to, unfortunately for me they don't. I'd need to take two buses to work for example so that's £8 return and the journey is an hour longer... It's just miles easier and cheaper to drive.

The only public transport I use is the train to/from Manchester but that's only so I can drink. We always drive to the Etihad for games unless planning to drink or go into town afterwards.

 

[metalblue]

Either you believe this planet is seriously warming up or not.

Some people think it's all a big con and just an excuse for governments to squeeze money out of us. If you believe that, naturally you'll hate things like ULEZ.

If on the other hand, you believe the science, then the reality is we face some painful adjustments. Things like ULEZ are probably a minor thing compared to what is to come. We might only be allowed to eat meat once a week or something. Imagine that! Sausage butty on Monday and then no meat for 7 days. This sort of shit won't be popular, because it can't be. No one likes losing what they've had all their life.

Ah if in doubt fall back on the “you’re either with us or against us”. You can believe in both global warming and that ULEZ is a revenue raising scam dressed up as an environmental issue.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/extraordinary-funding-and-financing-agreement-may-2020.pdf

Why would an environmental topic be included in an action plan on how to plug funding gaps …. unless the reason for having it was to raise revenue to plug said gaps?

 

[BrianW]

When calculating the cost of car travel, it's odd that most drivers never include the capital cost of motoring. To run a car costs thousands a year, which is an awful lot of taxi fares, never mind bus or train fares.

The problem is that the marginal cost is cheap. This gives the distorted impression that car travel is cheap.

 

[BrianW]

Ah if in doubt fall back on the “you’re either with us or against us”. You can believe in both global warming and that ULEZ is a revenue raising scam dressed up as an environmental issue.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/extraordinary-funding-and-financing-agreement-may-2020.pdf

Why would an environmental topic be included in an action plan on how to plug funding gaps …. unless the reason for having it was to raise revenue to plug said gaps?

You may be right that funding gaps need to be addressed as well.

The problem with our version of alleged democracy is that it encourages politicians to be dishonest and to go for stealth taxes, instead of honestly stating (say) that income tax needs to rise 2p, or VAT by 3%, or whatever.

Until we get out of the juvenile delusion that a modern state can be run on petty cash, we shall get nowhere. But that is a slightly different debate. The present setup almost requires politicians to go for stealth taxes, which breeds a dangerous cynicism.

More honesty is needed all around. So is more realism among voters. We also need to get rid of politicians who believe that public money is there to provide a source of loot for their best mates. For example, hiring a ship for 400 million a year that is only worth 50 million to buy outright. That latest, but not necessarily the most egregious example.

 

[metalblue]

You may be right that funding gaps need to be addressed as well.

The problem with our version of alleged democracy is that it encourages politicians to be dishonest and to go for stealth taxes, instead of honestly stating (say) that income tax needs to rise 2p, or VAT by 3%, or whatever.

Until we get out of the juvenile delusion that a modern state can be run on petty cash, we shall get nowhere. But that is a slightly different debate. The present setup almost requires politicians to go for stealth taxes, which breeds a dangerous cynicism.

More honesty is needed all around. So is more realism among voters. We also need to get rid of politicians who believe that public money is there to provide a source of loot for their best mates. For example, hiring a ship for 400 million a year that is only worth 50 million to buy outright. That latest, but not necessarily the most egregious example.

Quality post. Deserves more than a like.

 

[inbetween]

When calculating the cost of car travel, it's odd that most drivers never include the capital cost of motoring. To run a car costs thousands a year, which is an awful lot of taxi fares, never mind bus or train fares.

The problem is that the marginal cost is cheap. This gives the distorted impression that car travel is cheap.

For many people the biggest problems they have are around time and not cost. People are choosing to drive nowadays because it gives them time. Households have tons of cars because nowadays it gives them time, convenience and utility.

Public transport is never going to match that and even if it was made free many people will still pay to use a car. The only time people will choose inconvenience is if they have no choice due to money or whatever. Taxation will only push people into further inconvenience and society and wellbeing in general will be worse off for it.

Things like the ULEZ and even road tax are just taxes on convenience and choice really. When these schemes fail to be relevant because everyone has emission free cars then the powers that be will just move the goalposts and start a pay-per-mile consumption tax. Any imposed tax like this are absolutely all about the revenue.

Has the sugar tax solved the obesity crisis? No it has made sod all difference.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

For many people the biggest problems they have are around time and not cost. People are choosing to drive nowadays because it gives them time. Households have tons of cars because nowadays it gives them time, convenience and utility.

Public transport is never going to match that and even if it was made free many people will still pay to use a car. The only time people will choose inconvenience is if they have no choice due to money or whatever. Taxation will only push people into further inconvenience and society and wellbeing in general will be worse off for it.

Things like the ULEZ and even road tax are just taxes on convenience and choice really. When these schemes fail to be relevant because everyone has emission free cars then the powers that be will just move the goalposts and start a pay-per-mile consumption tax. Any imposed tax like this are absolutely all about the revenue.

Has the sugar tax solved the obesity crisis? No it has made sod all difference.

Rubbish.

Sugary drinks tax may have prevented over 5,000 cases of obesity

The soft drinks industry levy, the ‘sugary drinks tax’, in England was followed by a drop in the number of cases of obesity among older primary school children.

www.ukri.org

 

[BrianW]

For many people the biggest problems they have are around time and not cost. People are choosing to drive nowadays because it gives them time. Households have tons of cars because nowadays it gives them time, convenience and utility.

You are describing a surprisingly affluent society in an era when so many people claim they haven't a pot to piss in.

However, I don't think anyone is suggesting that cars be abolished/given up altogether. (Well, maybe a small percentage of cycling obsessives.) What is being sought is greater use of public transport when it is appropriate with cars used when they are appropriate.

It is not an either/or equation. Although considerable improvement in public transport is needed to give people genuine options. And that requires investment.

It's highly unlikely there'll ever be a sensible way to take a family of four with camping gear by public transport from Stubbins to Bishop's Castle, for example. But if someone wants to go from Stubbins to Manchester to go shopping, quality public transport should be on offer as an option. It should be neither ludicrously expensive nor ludicrously time-consuming.

 

[somapop]

I love walking and walk as much as possible. After a split I was about 2.5 miles away from the kids so often walk there and back when I pop round and see them.

If go to the office I'll always use tram or train and enjoy doing this. I very, very rarely get taxis (I've walked back from nights out in Manchester 6 or so miles, but that's mainly because I'd throw up if I got on public transport....travel sickness plus a 'bit of drink' isn't conducive to a nice journey.

Plus I'm a big of advocate of using ones legs as much as possible to keep fit (and walking hides 'exercise' very well).

But....after not owning a car for some time I'm now in the market to find one. I want to see friends and family up and down the country, take my kids away for trips. I live in an area that has absolutely brilliant public transport opportunities (tram and train & bus on doorstep) I can't pop to certain supermarkets or shops or visit National Trust places on a whim.
Never mind if I move out of this area with less public transport at my fingertips.

So when I get a new car I'll still walk everywhere if I can but I'll just more opportunities for travel for myself, my kids....and I ever get round to dating again, I'll have 'wheels' for that.

Electric car may not be an option at the moment though (living in a flat so no home charging).