United thread 2012/13 (inc merged IPO thread)

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JM Mcr said:
72blue said:
I agree, but it's not City's fault that United are not winning trophies, it's united's for not staying competitive with City. I also highly doubt they will have a Rangers-esque death due to their fanbase, sponsorship's etc.

Although I do see them drifting to about Arsenal level, when the transition of managers happens due to Ferguson's retirement, unless they get someone of Mourinho's class they will struggle IMO.
Bit of a premature comment don't you think? It's all of one whole season since they were last league champions!

As for not staying competitive with City, I'd say being pipped to the title on goal difference, with virtually the last kick of the season, is fairly competitive.
I'd agree with you mate but even you must admit that you have to seriously improve this year. Whilst you remained "competitive" last season, the run of fortune (for you) and unbelievable bad luck for us made it close (playing Arse twice and Spurs twice with all their key players missing and playing Chelsea when they were on their arse for instance). United never got up to top gear, they won so many by the odd goal or good decision whereas City never lost by more than a goal and were never played off the pitch (Arsenal coming closest).

In every game City dropped points, heads were scratched as to how we didn't win or atleast get a point, the vast majority of games had City demolishing teams. United didn't have that same experience. I still think that if those games were all played again (with last seasons personel) then City would finish 9 points clear. It was sheer will, luck and Ferguson that kept you at the top.

Will that happen again this season? Two of your best players (3 if you still count Camel gob) are yet another year closer to their bus pass. You really have to have a huge improvement to be truely feared.

Knowing Utd as I do, I think you probably will improve in playing style and dominate matches more often than not, whether that garners you more points than last season I don't know, I still don't know how you collected 89 pts last season as it is.
 
JM Mcr said:
72blue said:
I agree, but it's not City's fault that United are not winning trophies, it's united's for not staying competitive with City. I also highly doubt they will have a Rangers-esque death due to their fanbase, sponsorship's etc.

Although I do see them drifting to about Arsenal level, when the transition of managers happens due to Ferguson's retirement, unless they get someone of Mourinho's class they will struggle IMO.
Bit of a premature comment don't you think? It's all of one whole season since they were last league champions!

As for not staying competitive with City, I'd say being pipped to the title on goal difference, with virtually the last kick of the season, is fairly competitive.

The post was assuming the downfall of United had already happened, and as for the competitive comment, I agree they were very competitive last season, but i was referring to the point that said it was City's fault that United would stay in financial difficulty IF we kept on winning trophies
 
More comment:

http://www.tradingfloor.com/posts/m...analysts-view-its-a-bad-investment-2108615736

I have previously expressed my opinion that Manchester United (NYSE:MANU) is a great club, but a terrible investment. After having read through the company’s amendments my opinion hasn’t changed. In fact I am even more confident that this stock is a terrible investment.

Details of the IPO

Manchester United is planning to use the proceeds from its IPO to decrease the burdensome debt that was brought on the balance sheet when the Glazer family took over in a leveraged buyout in 2005. With 16.7 million shares being sold (10 percent of total shares outstanding) in a price range of USD 16 to 20, the club will eventually be valued at USD 2.6bn to 3.3bn. That is more than double the value the Glazers paid for the club.

With the stated goal of the IPO being to reduce debt, you would think all the proceeds would be used to pay off loans. That’s where you are wrong! The setup is as follows: the club will sell 8,333,333 shares at USD 16 to 20, which will eventually be used to pay down debt. Meanwhile, the Glazers will pocket the proceeds of 8,333,333 additional shares sold at the same price. So the owners are not entirely looking for investors to help them pay down debt. They will be filling up their own pockets as well.

After the Glazers take their share of the total GBP 210 million IPO proceeds, roughly GBP 100 million will be used to pay down the existing debt of GBP 440 million. This decrease in leverage will surely decrease the club’s yearly interest expenses, leaving more cash (hopefully) for maintaining the squad or facilities.

With the details in table 1 in place, you can see the stock is likely to be traded at a price-to-earnings ratio in the range of 75 to 93 given the company’s estimated profits for 2012. That is VERY expensive for a company that hasn’t really shown attractive earnings or revenue growth in recent years, and shares in a company whose business model is a football club. The valuation simply makes no sense.

Warning signs

With more information being given to us through the amendment last Monday, we have a clearer picture of how the club’s 2012 financial year will pan out. As you might expect, I am not particularly impressed.

I can agree the club has done one thing well, and that is growing its commercial revenue segment, which covers sponsorship, retail, merchandising and product licensing (approx. 35 percent of 2012 revenues). This segment will most likely continue to grow, as the club just announced a record sponsorship deal with the world’s largest carmaker, GM.

However, all revenue streams (commercial, broadcasting and matchday) are heavily dependent on pitch performance, especially broadcasting and matchday revenues (which declined by 12 percent compared to last year). It’s not only broadcasting and matchday revenues that are sensitive to performance: commercial value might also deteriorate over time should the pitch performance get worse.

Despite growing commercial revenues in recent years, total revenues in 2012 are expected to be 3.5 to 5 percent lower than the year before. Revenues were heavily affected by the club failing to qualify for the later stages in the Champions League last year which shows how sensitive revenues are with respect to pitch performance. At the same time as revenues are decreasing, player and staff expenses have increased by 4 to 5 percent. First warning sign! Revenues are slowing down while costs are increasing.

A second warning sign is the massive tax credit the club is utilizing in 2012. As the club had a tax credit of roughly GBP 27m, the club will turn a profit in the year. The tax credit is a onetime thing and won’t help the club to be profitable next year. Had there not been any tax credit this year there wouldn’t have been any profits!

The third warning sign is that total operating expenses are growing faster than revenues. A major factor in running a football club players’ salaries. As the world of football becomes more competitive, salaries have increased significantly. If the club fails to grow revenues at a higher pace than salaries and other costs, you will end up with a significant problem! That is just finance one-0-one.

Conclusion

A stock with little or no growth being priced at a P/E that is higher than 70 – No thanks! It is not like this is a company that can expand its operations to new regions, increase number of games played by participating in more leagues outside its home country or set up a ‘subsidiary team’ elsewhere. The broadcasting and matchday revenues are simply capped to a certain degree. The main factor that can boost revenues is the brands commercial value. That is simply not enough for me to make an investment case out of it.

As for my disclosure I do not intend to take any position in this stock in the future EVER, but I might disclose that I am an Arsenal fan. However, that doesn’t change the fact that Manchester United is a bad investment!
 
72blue said:
JM Mcr said:
72blue said:
I agree, but it's not City's fault that United are not winning trophies, it's united's for not staying competitive with City. I also highly doubt they will have a Rangers-esque death due to their fanbase, sponsorship's etc.

Although I do see them drifting to about Arsenal level, when the transition of managers happens due to Ferguson's retirement, unless they get someone of Mourinho's class they will struggle IMO.
Bit of a premature comment don't you think? It's all of one whole season since they were last league champions!

As for not staying competitive with City, I'd say being pipped to the title on goal difference, with virtually the last kick of the season, is fairly competitive.
The post was assuming the downfall of United had already happened, and as for the competitive comment, I agree they were very competitive last season, but i was referring to the point that said it was City's fault that United would stay in financial difficulty IF we kept on winning trophies
I know what the post was assuming but still think it's very premature to talk about a team "not winning trophies" on the strength of one barren season. No team is guaranteed to win a trophy every year - even an arrogant rag acknowledges that fact...
 
I agree with many of your points SWP (not sure the division of good and bad luck was quite as cut n dried as you believe but a view on that is always subjective so doubt we'd ever agree ;-) ), City were by far the better side over much of the season and I am amazed Utd went on to amass the points tally they did.

I do expect an improvement this season based on a few things. Ferguson is a notoriously bad loser and will demand a reaction from his squad, I also don't think you can understate the influence Vidic has on Utd's defence - if they can get him back fit it should be a huge boost. Similarly Rooney is hugely influential in our forward line, despite looking jaded for spells of the season he was still the main creative player. From the limited views I've had of Kagawa so far, I'm hopeful he will take some of that burden from Rooney's shoulders. On the keeping front De Gea improved throughout the season and looks to be building a decent understanding with his back 4. Finally, I think we may still see a further signing or two this summer.

On the flip side retaining the title is extremely hard to do, opposing sides tend to try even harder against the champions, your own players don't always retain their hunger after winning the league, or can become complacent.

Taking all that into account I fully expect Utd to be competitive again next season, writing them off sometimes seems to be an annual sport for some fans and sections of the media.
 
No team will try harder against us this season as they did last season teams were sweating bucket loads of sweat trying to stop us last year
 
I'm not writing Utd off mate, I said I think they will be our main threat next season, I just think that Utd will have to improve quite substantially to maintain a similar points haul.

PB - Why are Utd due a tax credit out of interest?
 
SWP's back said:
I'm not writing Utd off mate, I said I think they will be our main threat next season, I just think that Utd will have to improve quite substantially to maintain a similar points haul.

PB - Why are Utd due a tax credit out of interest?
Can't quite work this one out Sam. The note in the IPO document isn't very illuminating.

The tax credit for the nine months ended March 31, 2012 was £22.5 million, an increase of £21.0 million over the tax credit of £1.5 million for the nine months ended March 31, 2011. The increase resulted from the recognition of a previously unrecognized deferred tax asset of £21.3 million. This asset related to previously unrecognized tax losses.
 
Something has been niggling at me for a while now on this whole IPO thing.

Can't find 1 expert opinion that says their shares are any kop at that price.

Considering the Glazers have a bit of form saying 1 thing then doing another, ie we're paying down debt....oh no were not we're trousering it all for ourselves....does anyone think that this is all a bit of a smokescreen...???

I don't think they're stupid, they seem like completely ruthless business people to me, why would they run with something that doesn't stack up according to the experts.

Either they're absolutely desperate for money and are prepared to try anything to convince people to buy to save their arses or they are establishing a real time valuation in the marketplace and will be announcing a sale or substantial part sale in the near future.

Anyone else got a feeling something is being worked on behind the scenes..???
 
Eags said:
Either they're absolutely desperate for money and are prepared to try anything to convince people to buy to save their arses or they are establishing a real time valuation in the marketplace and will be announcing a sale or substantial part sale in the near future.

Anyone else got a feeling something is being worked on behind the scenes..???
They're working on saving their arses in my opinion. The US property business has been on its arse for a while and that would have been heavily mortgaged. They almost certainly borrowed money personally to pay off the PIK notes, which could easily have brought them to their knees if they hadn't paid them off. There are rumours of serious splits between the three who are actively involved in the rags and the three who aren't over that, as well as of penalty clauses about to be triggered as convenants in that loan are about to be breached.

I expect the 2012 accounts to show that their cash reserves are seriously depleted so if they've got one chance to take some of the pressure off it's now. But it's clearly been priced too high so that tends to suggest desperation. If they were looking for an indicative market value, better to price it lower and have it over-subscribed than at this level and see it flop.

It's a couple of years old but have a read of this to show what a state their main business was in at that point.

<a class="postlink" href="http://andersred.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/first-allied-corporation-watch-no-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://andersred.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08 ... -no-2.html</a>
 
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