United thread 2012/13 (inc merged IPO thread)

[LoveCity]

I hope Mancini sends this **** a return mail with a photo of him in bed with the ****'s missus. :)

 

[dario2739]

I hope Mancini sends this **** a return mail with a photo of him in bed with the ****'s missus. :)

I'd love to see the postage mark on that fucking envelope!
Funny how vocal the fucker's suddenly are... couldn't find one for three months after May 13th!

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Whilst it can be said that they often get the easier ride in the CL, mainly due to seeding system, Fergie has actually got a point in his little rant about how Chelsea's success in the last 6 years can be largely down to favourable draws.

Not including the Semi Finals or the Finals themselves (as Fergie said it was the earlier rounds where Chelsea have tended to benefit), Chelsea have played the following teams:

2007/08 - QPR (H), Wigan (A), Huddersfield (H), Barnsley (A)
2008/09 - Southend (H), Ipswich (H), Watford (A), Coventry (A)
2009/10 - Watford (H), Preston (A), Cardiff (H), Stoke (H)
2010/11 - Ipswich (H), Everton (H)
2011/12 - Portsmouth (H), QPR (A), Birmingham (A), Leicester (H)
2012/13 - Southampton (A), Brentford (A), Middlesbrough (A), Man United (H)

Out of 22 FA Cup draws, only 5 have been against Premier League opposition, of which 1 was against a "Top 4" side, which was Man United on Monday.
You have to agree, 17 out of 22 Fa Cup draws since the 07/08 season against teams outside the top flight is a remarkably fortunate run.

As for United:

2007/08 - Aston Villa (A), Tottenham (H), Arsenal (H), Portsmouth (H)
2008/09 - Southampton (A), Tottenham (H), Derby (A), Fulham (A)
2009/10 - Leeds (H)
2010/11 - Liverpool (H), Southampton (A), Crawley (H), Arsenal (H)
2011/12 - Man City (A), Liverpool (H)
2012/13 - West Ham (H), Fulham (H), Reading (H), Chelsea (A)

Out of 19 FA Cup draws, 14 of those have been against Premier League opposition, of which 8 of those have been against the likes of Tottenham x2, Arsenal x2, Liverpool x2, Man City & Chelsea.
You have to agree, 5 out of 19 Fa Cup draws since the 07/08 season against teams outside the top flight is a hardly an example of "luck of the draw".

Chelsea have largely benefitted from fortunate draws in recent seasons, without doubt.

Hold on! I thought you didn't believe in conspiracies? And before you say "Who mentioned conspiracies"? I've seen you jump down peoples throats for less....Hmmmmm!!

it's alright when Fergie moans despite the fact he gets a difficult draw once in a blue moon.

FFS on this thread of all threads, stop calling him fucking Fergie!!!

 

[Tricky Dickys Right Foot Shot]

I hope Mancini sends this **** a return mail with a photo of him in bed with the ****'s missus. :)

Who's Robert Mancini?

 

[M18CTID]

Easy draws? Among other soft draws in recent seasons the rags have got 3 non-league teams - Exeter, Crawley and Burton - the first two at home as well. They actually needed replays to get past Exeter and Burton but 2 years ago thrashed Crawley (surely the softest ever 5th round draw) 1-0. They came a cropper the season before though when in the 3rd round they got 3rd tier Leeds at home but lost 0-1.

Whilst it can be said that they often get the easier ride in the CL, mainly due to seeding system, Fergie has actually got a point in his little rant about how Chelsea's success in the last 6 years can be largely down to favourable draws.

Not including the Semi Finals or the Finals themselves (as Fergie said it was the earlier rounds where Chelsea have tended to benefit), Chelsea have played the following teams:

2007/08 - QPR (H), Wigan (A), Huddersfield (H), Barnsley (A)
2008/09 - Southend (H), Ipswich (H), Watford (A), Coventry (A)
2009/10 - Watford (H), Preston (A), Cardiff (H), Stoke (H)
2010/11 - Ipswich (H), Everton (H)
2011/12 - Portsmouth (H), QPR (A), Birmingham (A), Leicester (H)
2012/13 - Southampton (A), Brentford (A), Middlesbrough (A), Man United (H)

Out of 22 FA Cup draws, only 5 have been against Premier League opposition, of which 1 was against a "Top 4" side, which was Man United on Monday.
You have to agree, 17 out of 22 Fa Cup draws since the 07/08 season against teams outside the top flight is a remarkably fortunate run.

As for United:

2007/08 - Aston Villa (A), Tottenham (H), Arsenal (H), Portsmouth (H)
2008/09 - Southampton (A), Tottenham (H), Derby (A), Fulham (A)
2009/10 - Leeds (H)
2010/11 - Liverpool (H), Southampton (A), Crawley (H), Arsenal (H)
2011/12 - Man City (A), Liverpool (H)
2012/13 - West Ham (H), Fulham (H), Reading (H), Chelsea (A)

Out of 19 FA Cup draws, 14 of those have been against Premier League opposition, of which 8 of those have been against the likes of Tottenham x2, Arsenal x2, Liverpool x2, Man City & Chelsea.
You have to agree, 5 out of 19 Fa Cup draws since the 07/08 season against teams outside the top flight is a hardly an example of "luck of the draw".

Chelsea have largely benefitted from fortunate draws in recent seasons, without doubt.

Looking at those stats, he does indeed have a point but in all honesty would any other manager dream of bringing it up? You'd expect rival fans to come out with it when bantering with each other but it's downright petty for a manager to do it. At the end of the day, you can only beat what's in front of you and I don't seem to remember Ferguson or any other rival manager complaining about them having an easy ride when they won the European Cup Winner's Cup in 1991, having beaten the might of Pecsi Munkas, Wrexham, Montpellier, and Legia Warsaw en route to the final where they saw off an injury-ravaged Barcelona.

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

Easy draws? Among other soft draws in recent seasons the rags have got 3 non-league teams - Exeter, Crawley and Burton - the first two at home as well. They actually needed replays to get past Exeter and Burton but 2 years ago thrashed Crawley (surely the softest ever 5th round draw) 1-0. They came a cropper the season before though when in the 3rd round they got 3rd tier Leeds at home but lost 0-1.

Whilst it can be said that they often get the easier ride in the CL, mainly due to seeding system, Fergie has actually got a point in his little rant about how Chelsea's success in the last 6 years can be largely down to favourable draws.

Not including the Semi Finals or the Finals themselves (as Fergie said it was the earlier rounds where Chelsea have tended to benefit), Chelsea have played the following teams:

2007/08 - QPR (H), Wigan (A), Huddersfield (H), Barnsley (A)
2008/09 - Southend (H), Ipswich (H), Watford (A), Coventry (A)
2009/10 - Watford (H), Preston (A), Cardiff (H), Stoke (H)
2010/11 - Ipswich (H), Everton (H)
2011/12 - Portsmouth (H), QPR (A), Birmingham (A), Leicester (H)
2012/13 - Southampton (A), Brentford (A), Middlesbrough (A), Man United (H)

Out of 22 FA Cup draws, only 5 have been against Premier League opposition, of which 1 was against a "Top 4" side, which was Man United on Monday.
You have to agree, 17 out of 22 Fa Cup draws since the 07/08 season against teams outside the top flight is a remarkably fortunate run.

As for United:

2007/08 - Aston Villa (A), Tottenham (H), Arsenal (H), Portsmouth (H)
2008/09 - Southampton (A), Tottenham (H), Derby (A), Fulham (A)
2009/10 - Leeds (H)
2010/11 - Liverpool (H), Southampton (A), Crawley (H), Arsenal (H)
2011/12 - Man City (A), Liverpool (H)
2012/13 - West Ham (H), Fulham (H), Reading (H), Chelsea (A)

Out of 19 FA Cup draws, 14 of those have been against Premier League opposition, of which 8 of those have been against the likes of Tottenham x2, Arsenal x2, Liverpool x2, Man City & Chelsea.
You have to agree, 5 out of 19 Fa Cup draws since the 07/08 season against teams outside the top flight is a hardly an example of "luck of the draw".

Chelsea have largely benefitted from fortunate draws in recent seasons, without doubt.

Looking at those stats, he does indeed have a point but in all honesty would any other manager dream of bringing it up? You'd expect rival fans to come out with it when bantering with each other but it's downright petty for a manager to do it. At the end of the day, you can only beat what's in front of you and I don't seem to remember Ferguson or any other rival manager complaining about them having an easy ride when they won the European Cup Winner's Cup in 1991, having beaten the might of Pecsi Munkas, Wrexham, Montpellier, and Legia Warsaw en route to the final where they saw off an injury-ravaged Barcelona.

I agree. Like I've said, what he said about Chelsea's good fortune is correct in a way, however, it is petty of him to bring it up - I wont disagree with you on that front mate.

Blootoof - What are you bringing conspiracies up for? I've not mentioned it once, mainly I'm not in that camp. I'm not saying Chelsea are benefitting from rigged draws, merely they've been very luck in recent years. Nice try though.

JMW - Correct, Fergie should have won more cups in his time. That's not the same as comparing his recent CL draw history with Chelsea's FA Cup history. You ask any manager who's been involved in both the FA Cup and CL which is the harder competition to win and they'll tell you it's the CL. It's quite obvious, too. United may have made hard work of some of the lesser teams they've faced in the FA Cup but they've still beaten them (Leeds aside). It's funny but unfortunate for them that they have had to face the likes of Spurs x2, Arsenal x2, Liverpool x2, Chelsea & City in the early rounds in recent years whereas Chelsea haven't faced anyone of that note until the Semi's at least.

With the number of games teams like Chelsea and United have to face in a season, and the fact that by the time the FA Cup 3rd, 4th, 5th & QF games are being drawn, they are (usually) competing in the League and in Europe at the same time, so it's quite advantageous to get a cup run consisting of QPR, Wigan, Hull & Barnsley than Villa, Spurs, Arsenal & Portsmouth.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Whilst it can be said that they often get the easier ride in the CL, mainly due to seeding system, Fergie has actually got a point in his little rant about how Chelsea's success in the last 6 years can be largely down to favourable draws.

Not including the Semi Finals or the Finals themselves (as Fergie said it was the earlier rounds where Chelsea have tended to benefit), Chelsea have played the following teams:

2007/08 - QPR (H), Wigan (A), Huddersfield (H), Barnsley (A)
2008/09 - Southend (H), Ipswich (H), Watford (A), Coventry (A)
2009/10 - Watford (H), Preston (A), Cardiff (H), Stoke (H)
2010/11 - Ipswich (H), Everton (H)
2011/12 - Portsmouth (H), QPR (A), Birmingham (A), Leicester (H)
2012/13 - Southampton (A), Brentford (A), Middlesbrough (A), Man United (H)

Out of 22 FA Cup draws, only 5 have been against Premier League opposition, of which 1 was against a "Top 4" side, which was Man United on Monday.
You have to agree, 17 out of 22 Fa Cup draws since the 07/08 season against teams outside the top flight is a remarkably fortunate run.

As for United:

2007/08 - Aston Villa (A), Tottenham (H), Arsenal (H), Portsmouth (H)
2008/09 - Southampton (A), Tottenham (H), Derby (A), Fulham (A)
2009/10 - Leeds (H)
2010/11 - Liverpool (H), Southampton (A), Crawley (H), Arsenal (H)
2011/12 - Man City (A), Liverpool (H)
2012/13 - West Ham (H), Fulham (H), Reading (H), Chelsea (A)

Out of 19 FA Cup draws, 14 of those have been against Premier League opposition, of which 8 of those have been against the likes of Tottenham x2, Arsenal x2, Liverpool x2, Man City & Chelsea.
You have to agree, 5 out of 19 Fa Cup draws since the 07/08 season against teams outside the top flight is a hardly an example of "luck of the draw".

Chelsea have largely benefitted from fortunate draws in recent seasons, without doubt.

Looking at those stats, he does indeed have a point but in all honesty would any other manager dream of bringing it up? You'd expect rival fans to come out with it when bantering with each other but it's downright petty for a manager to do it. At the end of the day, you can only beat what's in front of you and I don't seem to remember Ferguson or any other rival manager complaining about them having an easy ride when they won the European Cup Winner's Cup in 1991, having beaten the might of Pecsi Munkas, Wrexham, Montpellier, and Legia Warsaw en route to the final where they saw off an injury-ravaged Barcelona.

I agree. Like I've said, what he said about Chelsea's good fortune is correct in a way, however, it is petty of him to bring it up - I wont disagree with you on that front mate.

Blootoof - What are you bringing conspiracies up for? I've not mentioned it once, mainly I'm not in that camp. I'm not saying Chelsea are benefitting from rigged draws, merely they've been very luck in recent years. Nice try though.

JMW - Correct, Fergie should have won more cups in his time. That's not the same as comparing his recent CL draw history with Chelsea's FA Cup history. You ask any manager who's been involved in both the FA Cup and CL which is the harder competition to win and they'll tell you it's the CL. It's quite obvious, too. United may have made hard work of some of the lesser teams they've faced in the FA Cup but they've still beaten them (Leeds aside). It's funny but unfortunate for them that they have had to face the likes of Spurs x2, Arsenal x2, Liverpool x2, Chelsea & City in the early rounds in recent years whereas Chelsea haven't faced anyone of that note until the Semi's at least.

With the number of games teams like Chelsea and United have to face in a season, and the fact that by the time the FA Cup 3rd, 4th, 5th & QF games are being drawn, they are (usually) competing in the League and in Europe at the same time, so it's quite advantageous to get a cup run consisting of QPR, Wigan, Hull & Barnsley than Villa, Spurs, Arsenal & Portsmouth.

yet they went and lost to Portsmouth having done the hard work in beating Spurs and Arsenal.

Plus United were the best team in the country so therefore should be expected to beat all these teams at home 2bh. And in a way with the calibre of the opposition they normally get to face in the CL, plus the fact knockout's are over 2 legs I'd say for them the CL is normally an easier competition for them, there's more leeway and they consistently get easier draws. Don't remember many other clubs who could throw the last 2 games of their group this season, though they were fortunate to win at least 2 of the first 4, but that's referees for you.

 

[City Raider]

even ferguson has said utd have hugely underachieved in cl

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

yet they went and lost to Portsmouth having done the hard work in beating Spurs and Arsenal.

What has this got to do with anything? The point wasn't that United should have beaten some of the lesser teams in the past. It was that Chelsea have benefitted from favourable FA cup draws over recent history. That's a fact that surely even you can see?

Plus United were the best team in the country so therefore should be expected to beat all these teams at home 2bh. And in a way with the calibre of the opposition they normally get to face in the CL, plus the fact knockout's are over 2 legs I'd say for them the CL is normally an easier competition for them, there's more leeway and they consistently get easier draws.

How on Earth is the CL an easier competition for them to win? That's absolute bollocks. You also only have to play 6 games (albeit you can face the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool, City, Arsenal & Spurs at any point). In the CL, you play 6 games in the group stages alone, plus another 8 if you manage to win it. More than double the games. Plus you're travelling all over Europe, sometimes as far as Ukraine, Romania etc, whilst managing your squad through domestic competitions.

Don't remember many other clubs who could throw the last 2 games of their group this season, though they were fortunate to win at least 2 of the first 4, but that's referees for you.

So because they qualified after 4 games this season, it means every season is like that? Over the past few years, Barcelona, Madrid & Bayern have had favourable draws. It's what happens when your seeded, like United are. Occasionally, you'll get a seemingly easy draw, like United's last season. After that, you've still got a 2leg 2nd round match, 2legged QF and 2legged SF against the best teams in Europe. Any team that has managed to reach 3 CL finals and win one of them in the last 6 years has done fairly well, IMO. If it wasn't for Barcelona, they may have won 3!

Over the course of Fergie's tenure, however, they should really have won more CL's. In fact, they should have won more FA Cup's. I'm not arguing that and never will argue that. I'm merely saying that, whilst it's a little petty of him, Chelsea have indeed benefitted from favourable FA Cup draws in recent times and that certainly has helped contribute to their trophy haul. I don't take anything away from them on that front though, after all, you can only beat what's put in front of you.

However, to put it simply, to win an FA Cup with fixtures such as QPR, Wigan, Huddersfield & Barnsley in the early rounds is far easier than winning an FA Cup having to play Villa, Spurs, Arsenal & Portsmouth (i'm not disagreeing that they'd already done the hard work beating the first 3 teams) and winning a CL playing Cluj, Galatsaray, Braga, Real Madrid and then 3 more from the current CL quarter finalists.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

yet they went and lost to Portsmouth having done the hard work in beating Spurs and Arsenal.

What has this got to do with anything? The point wasn't that United should have beaten some of the lesser teams in the past. It was that Chelsea have benefitted from favourable FA cup draws over recent history. That's a fact that surely even you can see?

Plus United were the best team in the country so therefore should be expected to beat all these teams at home 2bh. And in a way with the calibre of the opposition they normally get to face in the CL, plus the fact knockout's are over 2 legs I'd say for them the CL is normally an easier competition for them, there's more leeway and they consistently get easier draws.

How on Earth is the CL an easier competition for them to win? That's absolute bollocks. You also only have to play 6 games (albeit you can face the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool, City, Arsenal & Spurs at any point). In the CL, you play 6 games in the group stages alone, plus another 8 if you manage to win it. More than double the games. Plus you're travelling all over Europe, sometimes as far as Ukraine, Romania etc, whilst managing your squad through domestic competitions.

Don't remember many other clubs who could throw the last 2 games of their group this season, though they were fortunate to win at least 2 of the first 4, but that's referees for you.

So because they qualified after 4 games this season, it means every season is like that? Over the past few years, Barcelona, Madrid & Bayern have had favourable draws. It's what happens when your seeded, like United are. Occasionally, you'll get a seemingly easy draw, like United's last season. After that, you've still got a 2leg 2nd round match, 2legged QF and 2legged SF against the best teams in Europe. Any team that has managed to reach 3 CL finals and win one of them in the last 6 years has done fairly well, IMO. If it wasn't for Barcelona, they may have won 3!

Over the course of Fergie's tenure, however, they should really have won more CL's. In fact, they should have won more FA Cup's. I'm not arguing that and never will argue that. I'm merely saying that, whilst it's a little petty of him, Chelsea have indeed benefitted from favourable FA Cup draws in recent times and that certainly has helped contribute to their trophy haul. I don't take anything away from them on that front though, after all, you can only beat what's put in front of you.

However, to put it simply, to win an FA Cup with fixtures such as QPR, Wigan, Huddersfield & Barnsley in the early rounds is far easier than winning an FA Cup having to play Villa, Spurs, Arsenal & Portsmouth (i'm not disagreeing that they'd already done the hard work beating the first 3 teams) and winning a CL playing Cluj, Galatsaray, Braga, Real Madrid and then 3 more from the current CL quarter finalists.

The point being that United have had plenty of nice draws where they are expected to win so their lack of success is not down to Chelsea having easier draws it's down to Rags underachieving, thus making Fergie's point null and void.

We were talking about getting to semi's. In recent years that's been much easier for United due to draws than it has been for pretty much every other major club. In the same way Chelsea have had easier draws in the FA Cup United have in the CL, in arguably a more important, bigger and more lucrative tournament. So really they shouldn't be throwing stones in glass houses. Complaining about Chelsea's draws highlights only one thing, that United have been underachieving in everything bar the Premier League, thus making you question Fergie's overall legacy. Premier League is indisputable, but like Wenger he seems to have trouble doing it in anything else. Thus Fergie may have won 12 titles, but I don't think he's the best manager in Europe let alone in English history, he's probably the best league manager in history, but you'd have to decide whether you merit somebody going to several different leagues and winning the league there more than repeatedly winning it in one country.