United thread 2012/13 (inc merged IPO thread)

[Latics Fan SJK]

The point being that United have had plenty of nice draws where they are expected to win so their lack of success is not down to Chelsea having easier draws it's down to Rags underachieving, thus making Fergie's point null and void.

Are you just not getting this? I am not arguing the case for United's lack of recent success in the FA Cup, so that argument is completely moot. I'm saying Chelsea's recent success has been benefitted by favourable draws - which it has. You only have to look at their draws over the last 6yrs to see that. You can keep bringing up United's lack of success all you want, I'm not interested in debating that.

We were talking about getting to semi's. In recent years that's been much easier for United due to draws than it has been for pretty much every other major club. In the same way Chelsea have had easier draws in the FA Cup United have in the CL, in arguably a more important, bigger and more lucrative tournament.

Have you looked at the draws the major English clubs have had in the last 6 years, or are you just using the last 2yrs to add any kind of weight to your argument?

07/08 (Up until the SF)

Man United – Roma, Sporting, Dinamo Kiev, Lyon, Roma
Chelsea – Schalke, Rosenborg, Valencia, Olympiakos, Fenerbahce
Arsenal – Sevilla, Slavia Prague, Steaua, Milan, Liverpool
Liverpool – Porto, Marseille, Besiktas, Inter, Arsenal, Chelsea

I wouldn't say United had an easier path than Chelsea & Arsenal. Liverpool probably had the trickiest.

08/09 (Up until the SF)

Man United – Villarreal, Celtic, Aalborg, Inter, Porto
Chelsea – Roma, Bordeaux, Cluj, Juventus, Liverpool
Arsenal – Porto, Dinamo Kiev, Fenerbahce, Roma, Villarreal
Liverpool – Atletico, Marseille, PSV, Real Madrid, Chelsea

Again, Liverpool the most hard done by it appears. United & Chelsea's run are fairly similar.

09/10 (Up until the SF)

Man United – CSKA, Wolfsburg, Besiktas, Milan, Bayern
Chelsea – Porto, Atletico, APOEL, Inter
Liverpool – Fiorentina, Lyon, Debrecen
Arsenal – Olympiakos, Standard, AZ Alkmaar, Porto, Barcelona

Chelsea and Liverpool with the trickier Group Stage to negotiate, however there's no seperating the KO stages. Milan & Bayern for United is very difficult.

10/11 (Up until the SF)

Man United – Valencia, Rangers, Bursaspor, Marseille, Chelsea
Chelsea – Marseille, Spartak, Zilina, Copenhagen, Man United
Tottenham – Inter, Twente, Werder Bremen, Milan, Real Madrid
Arsenal – Shakhtar, Braga, Partizan, Barcelona

United's group no easier than Chelsea or Arsenal's. Spurs by far the hardest.

As for the last 2 years, I agree, United have had better draws. But you can see from the previous 4 that that isn't always the case.

So really they shouldn't be throwing stones in glass houses. Complaining about Chelsea's draws highlights only one thing, that United have been underachieving in everything bar the Premier League, thus making you question Fergie's overall legacy. Premier League is indisputable, but like Wenger he seems to have trouble doing it in anything else. Thus Fergie may have won 12 titles, but I don't think he's the best manager in Europe let alone in English history, he's probably the best league manager in history, but you'd have to decide whether you merit somebody going to several different leagues and winning the league there more than repeatedly winning it in one country.

Once again, I agree over his full tenure, Fergie may well look at himself at wonder why they haven't won more CL's or FA Cup's. I also agree that he isn't the greatest manager ever or the greatest manager in Europe at the moment. It's Mourinho, for me. I don't know why this is even being debated though.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

The point being that United have had plenty of nice draws where they are expected to win so their lack of success is not down to Chelsea having easier draws it's down to Rags underachieving, thus making Fergie's point null and void.

Are you just not getting this? I am not arguing the case for United's lack of recent success in the FA Cup, so that argument is completely moot. I'm saying Chelsea's recent success has been benefitted by favourable draws - which it has. You only have to look at their draws over the last 6yrs to see that. You can keep bringing up United's lack of success all you want, I'm not interested in debating that.

We were talking about getting to semi's. In recent years that's been much easier for United due to draws than it has been for pretty much every other major club. In the same way Chelsea have had easier draws in the FA Cup United have in the CL, in arguably a more important, bigger and more lucrative tournament.

Have you looked at the draws the major English clubs have had in the last 6 years, or are you just using the last 2yrs to add any kind of weight to your argument?

07/08 (Up until the SF)

Man United – Roma, Sporting, Dinamo Kiev, Lyon, Roma
Chelsea – Schalke, Rosenborg, Valencia, Olympiakos, Fenerbahce
Arsenal – Sevilla, Slavia Prague, Steaua, Milan, Liverpool
Liverpool – Porto, Marseille, Besiktas, Inter, Arsenal, Chelsea

I wouldn't say United had an easier path than Chelsea & Arsenal. Liverpool probably had the trickiest.

08/09 (Up until the SF)

Man United – Villarreal, Celtic, Aalborg, Inter, Porto
Chelsea – Roma, Bordeaux, Cluj, Juventus, Liverpool
Arsenal – Porto, Dinamo Kiev, Fenerbahce, Roma, Villarreal
Liverpool – Atletico, Marseille, PSV, Real Madrid, Chelsea

Again, Liverpool the most hard done by it appears. United & Chelsea's run are fairly similar.

09/10 (Up until the SF)

Man United – CSKA, Wolfsburg, Besiktas, Milan, Bayern
Chelsea – Porto, Atletico, APOEL, Inter
Liverpool – Fiorentina, Lyon, Debrecen
Arsenal – Olympiakos, Standard, AZ Alkmaar, Porto, Barcelona

Chelsea and Liverpool with the trickier Group Stage to negotiate, however there's no seperating the KO stages. Milan & Bayern for United is very difficult.

10/11 (Up until the SF)

Man United – Valencia, Rangers, Bursaspor, Marseille, Chelsea
Chelsea – Marseille, Spartak, Zilina, Copenhagen, Man United
Tottenham – Inter, Twente, Werder Bremen, Milan, Real Madrid
Arsenal – Shakhtar, Braga, Partizan, Barcelona

United's group no easier than Chelsea or Arsenal's. Spurs by far the hardest.

As for the last 2 years, I agree, United have had better draws. But you can see from the previous 4 that that isn't always the case.

So really they shouldn't be throwing stones in glass houses. Complaining about Chelsea's draws highlights only one thing, that United have been underachieving in everything bar the Premier League, thus making you question Fergie's overall legacy. Premier League is indisputable, but like Wenger he seems to have trouble doing it in anything else. Thus Fergie may have won 12 titles, but I don't think he's the best manager in Europe let alone in English history, he's probably the best league manager in history, but you'd have to decide whether you merit somebody going to several different leagues and winning the league there more than repeatedly winning it in one country.

Once again, I agree over his full tenure, Fergie may well look at himself at wonder why they haven't won more CL's or FA Cup's. I also agree that he isn't the greatest manager ever or the greatest manager in Europe at the moment. It's Mourinho, for me. I don't know why this is even being debated though.

over the course I think United's have easy draws, I also remember Mourinho's time when Chelsea were getting drawn with Liverpool in groups etc. whilst United were still get fairly good groups.

The point you seem to be missing is this was all from a Fergie comment about Chelsea's draws, so comparing it to United is fair. He can't talk, yes stating the obvious Chelsea have had nice draws in the FA Cup but Fergie cannot talk about not getting easy draws, he just doesn't make the most of home advantage and has had weaker teams that he's had to go to replay against etc.

The other point is that Chelsea having an easy draw does not equal United getting a tougher one and vice-versa, so therefore comparing draws isn't really the point. By and large they should be getting through with the draws the pair of them get, Chelsea do better domestically in cups and that comes down to the fact that for the past 10 years solid I think they've had a better squad depth than United, I also think Fergie is an average cup manager.

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

over the course I think United's have easy draws, I also remember Mourinho's time when Chelsea were getting drawn with Liverpool in groups etc. whilst United were still get fairly good groups.

Yes, one season Chelsea & Liverpool were drawn in the same group. Real Betis & Anderlecht were the other teams. United, that year were drawn with Villarreal, Benfica & Lille (all of these arguably tougher than Betis and definitely better than Anderlecht). You might think United have had easier draws, but apart from the last 2 years, I believe you're wrong. You only have to look at the history of CL draws to see that. Funnily enough, the 2 occasions United have won it, they've had to face the likes of Barcelona, Bayern & Roma.

The point you seem to be missing is this was all from a Fergie comment about Chelsea's draws, so comparing it to United is fair. He can't talk, yes stating the obvious Chelsea have had nice draws in the FA Cup but Fergie cannot talk about not getting easy draws, he just doesn't make the most of home advantage and has had weaker teams that he's had to go to replay against etc.

I'm not missing any point, mate. Yes, Fergie said it. When you look at the comment itself, it's not incorrect is it? Chelsea have benefitted from favourable draws. It's not a comment on United's lack of success or anything like that. It's a simple "Chelsea have had favourable FA Cup draws in recent years" comment. Had Chelsea had to face Spurs x2, Arsenal x2, United x2, City and Spurs during this time, whilst it cannot be proven, it can certainly be said that winning the number of FA Cups they have during this time would have been a hell of a lot harder and, in all probability, would have lessened the amount they have won. Again, you're harping on about United failing to beat the likes of Portsmouth & Leeds and going to replays in some games (which I haven't doubted).

Do I think Chelsea would have won the number of FA Cups in the last 6yrs they have won, had they faced the teams United have been drawn in that time? No. Credit where's it's due though in that they still got the job done.

Do I think United would have won at least 1 FA Cup in the last 6 years they have failed to win 1, if they had faced the teams Chelsea have been drawn against in that time? Yes (I believe Arsenal & Liverpool may have done too). That being said, they should still have performed much better during this period.

The other point is that Chelsea having an easy draw does not equal United getting a tougher one and vice-versa, so therefore comparing draws isn't really the point. By and large they should be getting through with the draws the pair of them get, Chelsea do better domestically in cups and that comes down to the fact that for the past 10 years solid I think they've had a better squad depth than United, I also think Fergie is an average cup manager.

Re the bit in bold, I don't get you. The only reason I have compared draws is to disprove your theory that United have always had easier draws than the other major English teams in Europe and to prove that Chelsea have had easier draws in the FA Cup than United have in the last 6yrs. If Chelsea get an easier draw than United, it means it's an easier draw. Simple as that. That's not to say United's couldn't be relatively easy at the same time. If United get Leeds at home and Chelsea get Southend at home for example, you'd expect both to get through, but Chelsea's is still easier.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

over the course I think United's have easy draws, I also remember Mourinho's time when Chelsea were getting drawn with Liverpool in groups etc. whilst United were still get fairly good groups.

Yes, one season Chelsea & Liverpool were drawn in the same group. Real Betis & Anderlecht were the other teams. United, that year were drawn with Villarreal, Benfica & Lille (all of these arguably tougher than Betis and definitely better than Anderlecht). You might think United have had easier draws, but apart from the last 2 years, I believe you're wrong. You only have to look at the history of CL draws to see that. Funnily enough, the 2 occasions United have won it, they've had to face the likes of Barcelona, Bayern & Roma.

The point you seem to be missing is this was all from a Fergie comment about Chelsea's draws, so comparing it to United is fair. He can't talk, yes stating the obvious Chelsea have had nice draws in the FA Cup but Fergie cannot talk about not getting easy draws, he just doesn't make the most of home advantage and has had weaker teams that he's had to go to replay against etc.

I'm not missing any point, mate. Yes, Fergie said it. When you look at the comment itself, it's not incorrect is it? Chelsea have benefitted from favourable drawers. It's not a comment on United's lack of success or anything like that. It's a simple "Chelsea have had favourable FA Cup draws in recent years" comment. Had Chelsea had to face Spurs x2, Arsenal x2, United x2, City and Spurs during this time, whilst it cannot be proven, it can certainly be said that winning the number of FA Cups they have during this time would have been a hell of a lot harder and, in all probability, would have lessened the amount they have won. Again, you're harping on about United failing to beat the likes of Portsmouth & Leeds and going to replays in some games (which I haven't doubted).

Do I think Chelsea would have won the number of FA Cups in the last 6yrs they have won, had they faced the teams United have been drawn in that time? No.

Do I think United would have won at least 1 FA Cup in the last 6 years they have failed to win 1, if they had faced the teams Chelsea have been drawn against in that time? Yes (I believe Arsenal & Liverpool may have done too).

The other point is that Chelsea having an easy draw does not equal United getting a tougher one and vice-versa, so therefore comparing draws isn't really the point. By and large they should be getting through with the draws the pair of them get, Chelsea do better domestically in cups and that comes down to the fact that for the past 10 years solid I think they've had a better squad depth than United, I also think Fergie is an average cup manager.

Re the bit in bold, I don't get you. The only reason I have compared draws is to disprove your theory that United have always had easier draws than the other major English teams in Europe and to prove that Chelsea have had easier draws in the FA Cup than United have in the last 6yrs. If Chelsea get an easier draw than United, it means it's an easier draw. Simple as that. That's not to say United's couldn't be relatively easy at the same time. If United get Leeds at home and Chelsea get Southend at home for example, you'd expect both to get through, but Chelsea's is still easier.

You can disagree all you want, it's down to personal opinion. For example I don't think you can put Roma even back then in the same category as Bayern and Barca. United should have finished top with no aggro in a group with Benfica, Villarreal and Lille, they finished bottom, Chelsea had a serious threat in Liverpool to finishing top of their group and I think ended up 2nd which is far more reasonable in my opinion. Also, it's hypothetical to suggest Chelsea wouldn't or United would have won more/less cups if they swapped draws. Fergie's cup record, losses and replays against weaker teams and the fact Chelsea beat a fair few of these teams in semi-finals and finals anyway suggests that I don't think we're too far away from the mark for the reasons I've already explained. United

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

You can disagree all you want, it's down to personal opinion. For example I don't think you can put Roma even back then in the same category as Bayern and Barca. United should have finished top with no aggro in a group with Benfica, Villarreal and Lille, they finished bottom, Chelsea had a serious threat in Liverpool to finishing top of their group and I think ended up 2nd which is far more reasonable in my opinion. Also, it's hypothetical to suggest Chelsea wouldn't or United would have won more/less cups if they swapped draws. Fergie's cup record, losses and replays against weaker teams and the fact Chelsea beat a fair few of these teams in semi-finals and finals anyway suggests that I don't think we're too far away from the mark for the reasons I've already explained. United

I wasn't classing Roma in the same bracket as Barca & Bayern, in that they were as good. I'm mentioned them as they were a very good side at the time that United were drawn with, that's all.

I also agree that United should really have finished top in that group if they performed to their best, however, they didn't. At the same time, that doesn't mean they had an easy draw. Personally, I would rather be put in a group with 1 good side and 2 below average sides, knowing the top 2 go through anyway, rather than 3 decent sides. Again though, like you say, it's down to opinion.

The argument was simply "Have Chelsea benefitted from favourable draws in the last 6yrs and have they contributed to their success". That's it, nothing else. No mention of how United have underformed. A petty comment from Fergie indeed, but it has substance regardless.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

You can disagree all you want, it's down to personal opinion. For example I don't think you can put Roma even back then in the same category as Bayern and Barca. United should have finished top with no aggro in a group with Benfica, Villarreal and Lille, they finished bottom, Chelsea had a serious threat in Liverpool to finishing top of their group and I think ended up 2nd which is far more reasonable in my opinion. Also, it's hypothetical to suggest Chelsea wouldn't or United would have won more/less cups if they swapped draws. Fergie's cup record, losses and replays against weaker teams and the fact Chelsea beat a fair few of these teams in semi-finals and finals anyway suggests that I don't think we're too far away from the mark for the reasons I've already explained. United

I wasn't classing Roma in the same bracket as Barca & Bayern, in that they were as good. I'm mentioned them as they were a very good side at the time that United were drawn with, that's all.

I also agree that United should really have finished top in that group if they performed to their best, however, they didn't. At the same time, that doesn't mean they had an easy draw. Personally, I would rather be put in a group with 1 good side and 2 below average sides, knowing the top 2 go through anyway, rather than 3 decent sides. Again though, like you say, it's down to opinion.

The argument was simply "Have Chelsea benefitted from favourable draws in the last 6yrs and have they contributed to their success". That's it, nothing else. No mention of how United have underformed. A petty comment from Fergie indeed, but it has substance regardless.

well it's a non-argument, because it wouldn't be mentioned unless Fergie was a bit bitter about it, which makes it sound like he's suggesting United don't, whereas in general they do, even if we can argue about who gets the slightly easier draw in Europe. It's a petty swipe at Chelsea which in the grand scheme of things has the substance of the square root of sod all.

 

[LoveCity]

Rob Harris ‏@RobHarris 13m
Breaking: Man United sells naming rights to Carrington training HQ & training kit sponsorship to Aon. 8-year deal worth around $230M

Someone will be happy. :)

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Rob Harris ‏@RobHarris 13m
Breaking: Man United sells naming rights to Carrington training HQ & training kit sponsorship to Aon. 8-year deal worth around $230M

Someone will be happy. :)

I wonder when the UEFA official will be commenting on this and promising to review it.

 

[mcmanus]

Rob Harris ‏@RobHarris 13m
Breaking: Man United sells naming rights to Carrington training HQ & training kit sponsorship to Aon. 8-year deal worth around $230M

Someone will be happy. :)

Cool. How much is ours worth?

 

[bluelol]

Rob Harris ‏@RobHarris 13m
Breaking: Man United sells naming rights to Carrington training HQ & training kit sponsorship to Aon. 8-year deal worth around $230M

Someone will be happy. :)

Great news, in that case ours must be incalculable, they really are chasing in our shadow and there must be some major concerns in the football world regarding little old City. All we need to do now is get the media on side.