United thread 2013/14

[Marvin]

Carrick is seriously overrated. Barry got slated for not being mobile, what does that make Carrick? He shined last season because he was their only decent midfielder. He retains the ball well but not a threat. Dembele ran the show against him last night.

There is a reason he doesn't play for England.

The Carrick and Barry comparison is a very good one. Though instead of both being overrated they are both underrated. Barry and Carrick are very similar players: roughly the same age, both good at passing, play defensive midfield, tall not the most mobile and read the game very well. You guys came 2nd last year with Barry starting. Carrick is a little bit ahead of Barry, because he reads the game that little bit better and has a better range of passing.

Barry in the end needed to be upgraded due to his faults. He did not want to be a squad player and left. You have now seen what a better player like Fernandinho can do. At the same time Barry has been the best player at Everton this season. He is getting rave reviews and is up there for signing of the season. Everton are fifth. A first team regular at a club challenging for the title, deemed not good enough, is usually good enough to be a star at a top 5-7 team.

Yesterday was his second game back from injury and he was not match fit. Hardly the game to judge him on. As for playing for England, that's a weak argument. I don't think there's any need to go into how players get into their national teams.

Football is a team game. Players need to gel as a team, and the manager has to find the right mix and the right formation. Barry at the base of a midfield 5 is excellent as other players can cover him. He is unlikely to get exposed one on one in a midfield five, but at City we now play with two central midfielders, Yaya Toure plus Fernandinho. He wouldn't get ahead of Yaya and alongside a player like Yaya, who is not that energetic, you really need a dynamic player who is quick. Barry would get totally exposed in our system.

Under Mancini he was one of our automatic starters, but was beginning to struggle last season. I'd take Barry over Carrick any day, bit wouldn't have either in our starting 11 now.

 

[supercrystal7]

Carrick is seriously overrated. Barry got slated for not being mobile, what does that make Carrick? He shined last season because he was their only decent midfielder. He retains the ball well but not a threat. Dembele ran the show against him last night.

There is a reason he doesn't play for England.

The Carrick and Barry comparison is a very good one. Though instead of both being overrated they are both underrated. Barry and Carrick are very similar players: roughly the same age, both good at passing, play defensive midfield, tall not the most mobile and read the game very well. You guys came 2nd last year with Barry starting. Carrick is a little bit ahead of Barry, because he reads the game that little bit better and has a better range of passing.

Barry in the end needed to be upgraded due to his faults. He did not want to be a squad player and left. You have now seen what a better player like Fernandinho can do. At the same time Barry has been the best player at Everton this season. He is getting rave reviews and is up there for signing of the season. Everton are fifthA first team regular at a club challenging for the title is usually good enough to be a star at a top 5-7 team.

Yesterday was his second game back from injury and he was not match fit. Hardly the game to judge him on. As for playing for England, that's a weak argument. I don't think there's any need to go into how players get into their national teams.

Carrick is not mobile enough if you want to compete in European honours. He's fine in this current squad which is average, if you sign some athletic modern midfielders you'll see a difference. Carrick is a good passer of the ball but his all round game is average. Fletcher in his peak is a better player than Carrick

No way was Fletcher in his peak better than Carrick. How can Carrick not be good enough for competing for European honours when he played in 3 Cl finals winning one? If we are talking about the current Carrick then I would agree, but he is still a very good player.

There is more to being a midfielder than just being able to run. Alonso was never the most mobile, but has won everything in the game. Carrick's not in Alonso's class, but th epoint stands.

 

[CatMan]

Was Moyes left with the Bayern Munich squad? No. However, it was not this poisoned chalice some people are making it out. It's a squad behind City, but at the same level as Chelsea/Arsenal and above Tottenham/Everton/Liverpool.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, it was very much a poisoned chalice.

Firstly after taking everton's manager, a team/manager who finished 6th, some 26 points behind united, scoring 31 goals less in the process. They had a whole summer to improve things, and yet they now find everton, also with a new manager who didn't add much to their squad, 4 points and 2 places better off. Moyes and Martinez had pretty well the same amount of time to strengthen, but its united under Moyes who are behind, so is this purely his fault, or was it actually down to the respective squads ?

united may have won the title last year by a distance, but they weren't very good doing so, ferguson made the sum of the parts far greater than the individual parts themselves, driven on by his own "not in my lifetime" jibe at City, that backfired in the most spectacular style in May 2012. This gave him the determination to take the title back one more time, and without RVP, I very much doubt they would have done so, but RVP was already getting on, and not always in reliable fitness. It was a signing purely for the short term, with one goal only, beat City, most unlike ferguson in fact, it was a gamble that worked, allowing him to go out at the top, but it papered over many other cracks. Like him or not, once he'd finally gone, they were in serious trouble, no matter who they brought in as manager, perhaps a Mourinho may have worked for another year, though I doubt it without serious cash.

BUT and this is key, he left them with a sub standard squad, many a year further past their sell by date, who had only known one boss, and one way. Bringing back Scholes, and relying on Giggs, and an already broken Ferdinand, were poor decisions, and it has left Moyes with a huge mess to sort out. They need a complete refit for me, and if they finish outside the top, as looks likely right now, that is going to have to be done much lower budget, and longer term.

The reason they are in the mess they are is ferguson taking the short cut back to the top for his own personal reasons, not those of the club, he has left them with an average ageing squad.

Good, many of us are loving it.

Good Post that!

 

[supercrystal7]

Carrick is seriously overrated. Barry got slated for not being mobile, what does that make Carrick? He shined last season because he was their only decent midfielder. He retains the ball well but not a threat. Dembele ran the show against him last night.

There is a reason he doesn't play for England.

The Carrick and Barry comparison is a very good one. Though instead of both being overrated they are both underrated. Barry and Carrick are very similar players: roughly the same age, both good at passing, play defensive midfield, tall not the most mobile and read the game very well. You guys came 2nd last year with Barry starting. Carrick is a little bit ahead of Barry, because he reads the game that little bit better and has a better range of passing.

Barry in the end needed to be upgraded due to his faults. He did not want to be a squad player and left. You have now seen what a better player like Fernandinho can do. At the same time Barry has been the best player at Everton this season. He is getting rave reviews and is up there for signing of the season. Everton are fifth. A first team regular at a club challenging for the title, deemed not good enough, is usually good enough to be a star at a top 5-7 team.

Yesterday was his second game back from injury and he was not match fit. Hardly the game to judge him on. As for playing for England, that's a weak argument. I don't think there's any need to go into how players get into their national teams.

Football is a team game. Players need to gel as a team, and the manager has to find the right mix and the right formation. Barry at the base of a midfield 5 is excellent as other players can cover him. He is unlikely to get exposed one on one in a midfield five, but at City we now play with two central midfielders, Yaya Toure plus Fernandinho. He wouldn't get ahead of Yaya and alongside a player like Yaya, who is not that energetic, you really need a dynamic player who is quick. Barry would get totally exposed in our system.

Under Mancini he was one of our automatic starters, but was beginning to struggle last season. I'd take Barry over Carrick any day, bit wouldn't have either in our starting 11 now.

I agree that football is a team game and that's why I often talk about how certain teams like PSG don't have much balance. I agree with the reasons why Barry was replaced.

However, when you say you would take Barry over Carrick what is that based on apart from Barry being a City player and Carrick a United? It's actually one of those comparisons that the players are so similar that even if the gap is small hard to argue that one is better than the other. Carrick does everything Barry does, except he does somethings a little better.

 

[aguero93:20]

The Carrick and Barry comparison is a very good one. Though instead of both being overrated they are both underrated. Barry and Carrick are very similar players: roughly the same age, both good at passing, play defensive midfield, tall not the most mobile and read the game very well. You guys came 2nd last year with Barry starting. Carrick is a little bit ahead of Barry, because he reads the game that little bit better and has a better range of passing.

Barry in the end needed to be upgraded due to his faults. He did not want to be a squad player and left. You have now seen what a better player like Fernandinho can do. At the same time Barry has been the best player at Everton this season. He is getting rave reviews and is up there for signing of the season. Everton are fifthA first team regular at a club challenging for the title is usually good enough to be a star at a top 5-7 team.

Yesterday was his second game back from injury and he was not match fit. Hardly the game to judge him on. As for playing for England, that's a weak argument. I don't think there's any need to go into how players get into their national teams.

Carrick is not mobile enough if you want to compete in European honours. He's fine in this current squad which is average, if you sign some athletic modern midfielders you'll see a difference. Carrick is a good passer of the ball but his all round game is average. Fletcher in his peak is a better player than Carrick

No way was Fletcher in his peak better than Carrick. How can Carrick not be good enough for competing for European honours when he played in 3 Cl finals winning one? If we are talking about the current Carrick then I would agree, but he is still a very good player.

There is more to being a midfielder than just being able to run. Alonso was never the most mobile, but has won everything in the game. Carrick's not in Alonso's class, but th epoint stands.

Carrick was the water carrier and weakest link in those 3 champions league finals, if you want to see a cl winning performer in midfield look at the 4 holding midfielders to make the final last year, gundogan bender Martinez and schweinsteiger make Carrick at any stage of his career look amateur

 

[13/05/12]

The Carrick and Barry comparison is a very good one. Though instead of both being overrated they are both underrated. Barry and Carrick are very similar players: roughly the same age, both good at passing, play defensive midfield, tall not the most mobile and read the game very well. You guys came 2nd last year with Barry starting. Carrick is a little bit ahead of Barry, because he reads the game that little bit better and has a better range of passing.

Barry in the end needed to be upgraded due to his faults. He did not want to be a squad player and left. You have now seen what a better player like Fernandinho can do. At the same time Barry has been the best player at Everton this season. He is getting rave reviews and is up there for signing of the season. Everton are fifthA first team regular at a club challenging for the title is usually good enough to be a star at a top 5-7 team.

Yesterday was his second game back from injury and he was not match fit. Hardly the game to judge him on. As for playing for England, that's a weak argument. I don't think there's any need to go into how players get into their national teams.

Carrick is not mobile enough if you want to compete in European honours. He's fine in this current squad which is average, if you sign some athletic modern midfielders you'll see a difference. Carrick is a good passer of the ball but his all round game is average. Fletcher in his peak is a better player than Carrick

No way was Fletcher in his peak better than Carrick. How can Carrick not be good enough for competing for European honours when he played in 3 Cl finals winning one? If we are talking about the current Carrick then I would agree, but he is still a very good player.

There is more to being a midfielder than just being able to run. Alonso was never the most mobile, but has won everything in the game. Carrick's not in Alonso's class, but th epoint stands.

I am talking about the current Carrick who many United fans class as the best midfielder in the league. He's a good footballer but not the top midfielder United fans claim he is.

You're linked with Koke. He is the type of midfielder I'm talking about. Technically class and can work up and down the pitch.

 

[Vienna_70]

A rag at work - he's so clueless, we call him Mr Football - came up,to me and said, "Moyes out!"

I replied,"No, we want him to stay for years,” and returned to my work.

And how the hell can gollum complain that Tom Daley should have had a penalty?

He was airborne long before Lloris came anywhere near him.

A cry of desperation if ever I heard one.

 

[supercrystal7]

Was Moyes left with the Bayern Munich squad? No. However, it was not this poisoned chalice some people are making it out. It's a squad behind City, but at the same level as Chelsea/Arsenal and above Tottenham/Everton/Liverpool.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, it was very much a poisoned chalice.

Firstly after taking everton's manager, a team/manager who finished 6th, some 26 points behind united, scoring 31 goals less in the process. They had a whole summer to improve things, and yet they now find everton, also with a new manager who didn't add much to their squad, 4 points and 2 places better off. Moyes and Martinez had pretty well the same amount of time to strengthen, but its united under Moyes who are behind, so is this purely his fault, or was it actually down to the respective squads ?

This is the first place where you are wrong. Martinez has done a lot to strengthen Everton.
1. He brought in a much better striker than they have ever had in Lukaku.
2. He completely changed the midfield around. He brought in two new midfielders. Barry and Mccarthy are the reason their passing game has improved. Barry has been their best player in my opinion.
3. He moved Coleman for good to right back and gave him more license to attack.
4. He brought Barkley back into the team and played him off the striker.
5. He also brought in more talented wingers like the Barcelona player and Oviedo, who is a left back but can play out wide.

Those are huge changes and they are reaping the benefits.

united may have won the title last year by a distance, but they weren't very good doing so, ferguson made the sum of the parts far greater than the individual parts themselves, driven on by his own "not in my lifetime" jibe at City, that backfired in the most spectacular style in May 2012. This gave him the determination to take the title back one more time, and without RVP, I very much doubt they would have done so, but RVP was already getting on, and not always in reliable fitness. It was a signing purely for the short term, with one goal only, beat City, most unlike ferguson in fact, it was a gamble that worked, allowing him to go out at the top, but it papered over many other cracks. Like him or not, once he'd finally gone, they were in serious trouble, no matter who they brought in as manager, perhaps a Mourinho may have worked for another year, though I doubt it without serious cash.

United lost the points on goal difference the year before. It took until the last minute of the last game for City to win the league. The team had cracks and weaknesses, but every team until City in the Premiership did. Buying a player like RVP was more than just one final swansong. Ferguson is not the kind of manager to forgive and I always thought he would get rid of Rooney. Before the RVP signing there were far too many rumours about Lewnadowski going to United. RVP was not a short term solution, but the replacement for Rooney. As for getting on he is 30 and whilst being injury prone has never relied on his athletic ability much.

BUT and this is key, he left them with a sub standard squad, many a year further past their sell by date, who had only known one boss, and one way. Bringing back Scholes, and relying on Giggs, and an already broken Ferdinand, were poor decisions, and it has left Moyes with a huge mess to sort out. They need a complete refit for me, and if they finish outside the top, as looks likely right now, that is going to have to be done much lower budget, and longer term.

The reason they are in the mess they are is ferguson taking the short cut back to the top for his own personal reasons, not those of the club, he has left them with an average ageing squad.

Good, many of us are loving it.

This is where I disagree. Bringing back Scholes was certainly a mistake and rather than the RVP signing an example of how he wanted to get one over City and was not thinking about the future. This was Ferguson's biggest weakness and where they needed to rebuild. The thing is Moyes had 30 million to spend on the problem. I have brought up players available this summer who would have completely changed the midifled. Carrick partnered alongside Fernandinho, Moutinho, Gustavo or De Rossi would have been acceptable. Instead Moyes went for stupid unrealistic targets like Fabregas. Even if you failed to get any of those a player of Strootman's or Cabaye's quality would have grealty helped the problem.

As for Ferdinand he somehow had an Indian Summer last season. For the second half of last year he was actually very good. However, it's not liek Ferguson left him short changed in defence. He left him centre backs like Vidic, Evans, Smalling and Jones.

Ferguson left a team with problems, but a team that should never have even thought about slipping out of the top 4.

Don't get me wrong I love seeing United suffer too. If there is anywhere with lots of arrogant smug United fans it's London and there is no club in the Premiership I hate more. No questions annoyed me more than "but who do you support in the Premiership" or "why do you support them they always lose." I do enjoy a good discussion about football and don't think the team was anywhere near as weak as people are portraying.

If Ferguson was in charge I suspect Rooney would have been sold and Ozil brought in. Money would have been spent on a midfielder. This is Ferguson's weakness and have no idea who he would have gone. Most likely it would have been a poor buy like Anderson or Hargreaves. Still say he bought Fernandinho a player we all know and rate for the 30 million instead of Feilani.

Moyes could have easily had a United team that looks like this.

De Gea
Rafael Jones Vidic Evra
Carrick Fernandinho
Kagawa Ozil Januzaj
RVP

-- Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:23 pm --

Carrick is not mobile enough if you want to compete in European honours. He's fine in this current squad which is average, if you sign some athletic modern midfielders you'll see a difference. Carrick is a good passer of the ball but his all round game is average. Fletcher in his peak is a better player than Carrick

No way was Fletcher in his peak better than Carrick. How can Carrick not be good enough for competing for European honours when he played in 3 Cl finals winning one? If we are talking about the current Carrick then I would agree, but he is still a very good player.

There is more to being a midfielder than just being able to run. Alonso was never the most mobile, but has won everything in the game. Carrick's not in Alonso's class, but th epoint stands.

Carrick was the water carrier and weakest link in those 3 champions league finals, if you want to see a cl winning performer in midfield look at the 4 holding midfielders to make the final last year, gundogan bender Martinez and schweinsteiger make Carrick at any stage of his career look amateur

No doubt about that. I am in full agreement. Carrick is not and was never ever in the class of those four. He was still a very good midfielder and is currently still a very good midfielder.

Like Barry he was more than good enough to beat up every team in the Premiership and get to the quarters in the CL (your incredibly hard groups withstanding), but against the elites of football he would be found out. The thing is this United team is not struggling against the Madrid's and Dortmund's of this world like Barry did. They are struggling against the likes of Everton, who Carrick is more than good enough to outplay.

 

[scotty123]

Is that there that Phil Jones feller?

That was a fake Manc accent, he was just trying too hard, what a wanker

Wait a minute, three of them trying to tell Malcolm to get his hand in his pocket. I'm confused.

Me too, i thought they had a production line of starry eyed young lads from Salford, Moston and Gorton all chomping at the bit to play for the mighty rags

 

[alky313]

I'm sorry but Barry is streets ahead of Carrick.