United thread 2013/14

[bigf42]

For what it's worth, I don't think it is the appointment of Moyes that has put United into this predicament, but Moyes deciding he wanted to bring his own back room staff and removing the old guard that, had served them for so well, in many cases, for so many years. I think it's hard to imagine what a transition that is and, to some degree, is what we've done well for the transition from Mancini to Pellegrini.

Structure is just as important as the individual in the process of change management - keeping the likes of Vieira, albeit in a different role, and Kidd in place have, one can only presume, helped the transition for Pellegrini no end as it helps integrate his own ideas and makes it far easier when bringing in Cousillas and Mancisidor, i.e. there's enough change to accurately reflect the change in leadership but not enough to upset the apple cart. Now compare that to United who, for reasons unknown, have given a relatively unproven, in terms of success on the biggest platform, manger with a reputation amongst Everton fans for 'bottling' it see Villarreal, FA Cup final defeat, defeat to Wigan in last season's cup and umpteen others where Everton missed their big chance a free hand in bringing in his own backroom staff.

This screams to me that Moyes either i) believes they're a better coaching set-up than what was in place under Ferguson or ii), which I think is much more likely, that Moyes does not have a personality strong enough to have replaced Ferguson and kept Ferguson's coaching staff in place. It's easy to say with hindsight, but this decision should have set all kinds of alarm bells off at United when Moyes requested to bring his own coaching staff with him - without looking it up, I think he's only kept Joyce and let the others go - OK, Moyes is undoubtedly at fault for making this change but who at United, when discussing the terms of Moyes' move said "Yeah, that's a cracking idea Davey, I'm sure Phil Neville and Steve Round will take Cleverley and Chris Smalling to the next level"?

This, for me, points to that inherently and frequently incoherent Glaswegian piss head setting up Moyes for a fall, all to protect his own legacy.

You have absolutely nailed the issue, football is the only industry that allows incoming management to destroy a perfectly good management team and replace it with the new guys yes men.

GPC was always very shrewd in picking his team and his #2s, the best laff is that if he were to come back on his white charger to save the day, then with Moyse's lackeys to work with he'd be well and truly f@#$&d.

Look at the limitations we had with the taffia.

 

[GazC]

For what it's worth, I don't think it is the appointment of Moyes that has put United into this predicament, but Moyes deciding he wanted to bring his own back room staff and removing the old guard that, had served them for so well, in many cases, for so many years. I think it's hard to imagine what a transition that is and, to some degree, is what we've done well for the transition from Mancini to Pellegrini.

Structure is just as important as the individual in the process of change management - keeping the likes of Vieira, albeit in a different role, and Kidd in place have, one can only presume, helped the transition for Pellegrini no end as it helps integrate his own ideas and makes it far easier when bringing in Cousillas and Mancisidor, i.e. there's enough change to accurately reflect the change in leadership but not enough to upset the apple cart. Now compare that to United who, for reasons unknown, have given a relatively unproven, in terms of success on the biggest platform, manger with a reputation amongst Everton fans for 'bottling' it see Villarreal, FA Cup final defeat, defeat to Wigan in last season's cup and umpteen others where Everton missed their big chance a free hand in bringing in his own backroom staff.

This screams to me that Moyes either i) believes they're a better coaching set-up than what was in place under Ferguson or ii), which I think is much more likely, that Moyes does not have a personality strong enough to have replaced Ferguson and kept Ferguson's coaching staff in place. It's easy to say with hindsight, but this decision should have set all kinds of alarm bells off at United when Moyes requested to bring his own coaching staff with him - without looking it up, I think he's only kept Joyce and let the others go - OK, Moyes is undoubtedly at fault for making this change but who at United, when discussing the terms of Moyes' move said "Yeah, that's a cracking idea Davey, I'm sure Phil Neville and Steve Round will take Cleverley and Chris Smalling to the next level"?

This, for me, points to that inherently and frequently incoherent Glaswegian piss head setting up Moyes for a fall, all to protect his own legacy.

Funny that Moyes felt the need to change the backroom staff but no major changes to the team...surely if he wanted it to be the'Moyes era' hed have put 2 or 3 of his own choices in there..
The only player hes added has gone backwards..

I don't believe it wasn't for lack of trying - bringing in Fellaini and going for Baines, again, should have been another pointer towards Moyes getting it so wrong. I can understand why a manager would want to surround himself with 'his people' - but surely a manager should be making personnel changes for the good of the club, rather than the good of himself?

 

[NQCitizen]

For what it's worth, I don't think it is the appointment of Moyes that has put United into this predicament, but Moyes deciding he wanted to bring his own back room staff and removing the old guard that, had served them for so well, in many cases, for so many years. I think it's hard to imagine what a transition that is and, to some degree, is what we've done well for the transition from Mancini to Pellegrini.

Structure is just as important as the individual in the process of change management - keeping the likes of Vieira, albeit in a different role, and Kidd in place have, one can only presume, helped the transition for Pellegrini no end as it helps integrate his own ideas and makes it far easier when bringing in Cousillas and Mancisidor, i.e. there's enough change to accurately reflect the change in leadership but not enough to upset the apple cart. Now compare that to United who, for reasons unknown, have given a relatively unproven, in terms of success on the biggest platform, manger with a reputation amongst Everton fans for 'bottling' it see Villarreal, FA Cup final defeat, defeat to Wigan in last season's cup and umpteen others where Everton missed their big chance a free hand in bringing in his own backroom staff.

This screams to me that Moyes either i) believes they're a better coaching set-up than what was in place under Ferguson or ii), which I think is much more likely, that Moyes does not have a personality strong enough to have replaced Ferguson and kept Ferguson's coaching staff in place. It's easy to say with hindsight, but this decision should have set all kinds of alarm bells off at United when Moyes requested to bring his own coaching staff with him - without looking it up, I think he's only kept Joyce and let the others go - OK, Moyes is undoubtedly at fault for making this change but who at United, when discussing the terms of Moyes' move said "Yeah, that's a cracking idea Davey, I'm sure Phil Neville and Steve Round will take Cleverley and Chris Smalling to the next level"?

This, for me, points to that inherently and frequently incoherent Glaswegian piss head setting up Moyes for a fall, all to protect his own legacy.

Funny that Moyes felt the need to change the backroom staff but no major changes to the team...surely if he wanted it to be the'Moyes era' hed have put 2 or 3 of his own choices in there..
The only player hes added has gone backwards..

Tellingly he overpaid to have a sub-standard player, seemingly just because he had the safety net of having managed him before.

 

[GazC]

For what it's worth, I don't think it is the appointment of Moyes that has put United into this predicament, but Moyes deciding he wanted to bring his own back room staff and removing the old guard that, had served them for so well, in many cases, for so many years. I think it's hard to imagine what a transition that is and, to some degree, is what we've done well for the transition from Mancini to Pellegrini.

Structure is just as important as the individual in the process of change management - keeping the likes of Vieira, albeit in a different role, and Kidd in place have, one can only presume, helped the transition for Pellegrini no end as it helps integrate his own ideas and makes it far easier when bringing in Cousillas and Mancisidor, i.e. there's enough change to accurately reflect the change in leadership but not enough to upset the apple cart. Now compare that to United who, for reasons unknown, have given a relatively unproven, in terms of success on the biggest platform, manger with a reputation amongst Everton fans for 'bottling' it see Villarreal, FA Cup final defeat, defeat to Wigan in last season's cup and umpteen others where Everton missed their big chance a free hand in bringing in his own backroom staff.

This screams to me that Moyes either i) believes they're a better coaching set-up than what was in place under Ferguson or ii), which I think is much more likely, that Moyes does not have a personality strong enough to have replaced Ferguson and kept Ferguson's coaching staff in place. It's easy to say with hindsight, but this decision should have set all kinds of alarm bells off at United when Moyes requested to bring his own coaching staff with him - without looking it up, I think he's only kept Joyce and let the others go - OK, Moyes is undoubtedly at fault for making this change but who at United, when discussing the terms of Moyes' move said "Yeah, that's a cracking idea Davey, I'm sure Phil Neville and Steve Round will take Cleverley and Chris Smalling to the next level"?

This, for me, points to that inherently and frequently incoherent Glaswegian piss head setting up Moyes for a fall, all to protect his own legacy.

You have absolutely nailed the issue, football is the only industry that allows incoming management to destroy a perfectly good management team and replace it with the new guys yes men.

GPC was always very shrewd in picking his team and his #2s, the best laff is that if he were to come back on his white charger to save the day, then with Moyse's lackeys to work with he'd be well and truly f@#$&d.

Look at the limitations we had with the taffia.

Absolutely, I read an analogy, either on here or another forum, where somebody likened it to United being Tesco and Everton being Lidl. Tesco have a change of their executive team and replace their CEO with the CEO of Lidl - ok that wouldn't be enough to raise any eyebrows - but to replace the CFO, Chairman & COO with people from Lidl too - well that's madness.

 

[moomba]

For what it's worth, I don't think it is the appointment of Moyes that has put United into this predicament, but Moyes deciding he wanted to bring his own back room staff and removing the old guard that, had served them for so well, in many cases, for so many years. I think it's hard to imagine what a transition that is and, to some degree, is what we've done well for the transition from Mancini to Pellegrini.

Structure is just as important as the individual in the process of change management - keeping the likes of Vieira, albeit in a different role, and Kidd in place have, one can only presume, helped the transition for Pellegrini no end as it helps integrate his own ideas and makes it far easier when bringing in Cousillas and Mancisidor, i.e. there's enough change to accurately reflect the change in leadership but not enough to upset the apple cart. Now compare that to United who, for reasons unknown, have given a relatively unproven, in terms of success on the biggest platform, manger with a reputation amongst Everton fans for 'bottling' it see Villarreal, FA Cup final defeat, defeat to Wigan in last season's cup and umpteen others where Everton missed their big chance a free hand in bringing in his own backroom staff.

This screams to me that Moyes either i) believes they're a better coaching set-up than what was in place under Ferguson or ii), which I think is much more likely, that Moyes does not have a personality strong enough to have replaced Ferguson and kept Ferguson's coaching staff in place. It's easy to say with hindsight, but this decision should have set all kinds of alarm bells off at United when Moyes requested to bring his own coaching staff with him - without looking it up, I think he's only kept Joyce and let the others go - OK, Moyes is undoubtedly at fault for making this change but who at United, when discussing the terms of Moyes' move said "Yeah, that's a cracking idea Davey, I'm sure Phil Neville and Steve Round will take Cleverley and Chris Smalling to the next level"?

This, for me, points to that inherently and frequently incoherent Glaswegian piss head setting up Moyes for a fall, all to protect his own legacy.

Funny that Moyes felt the need to change the backroom staff but no major changes to the team...surely if he wanted it to be the'Moyes era' hed have put 2 or 3 of his own choices in there..
The only player hes added has gone backwards..

Hibbo said he'd rather stay at Everton.

 

[sir baconface]

For what it's worth, I don't think it is the appointment of Moyes that has put United into this predicament, but Moyes deciding he wanted to bring his own back room staff and removing the old guard that, had served them for so well, in many cases, for so many years. I think it's hard to imagine what a transition that is and, to some degree, is what we've done well for the transition from Mancini to Pellegrini.

Structure is just as important as the individual in the process of change management - keeping the likes of Vieira, albeit in a different role, and Kidd in place have, one can only presume, helped the transition for Pellegrini no end as it helps integrate his own ideas and makes it far easier when bringing in Cousillas and Mancisidor, i.e. there's enough change to accurately reflect the change in leadership but not enough to upset the apple cart. Now compare that to United who, for reasons unknown, have given a relatively unproven, in terms of success on the biggest platform, manger with a reputation amongst Everton fans for 'bottling' it see Villarreal, FA Cup final defeat, defeat to Wigan in last season's cup and umpteen others where Everton missed their big chance a free hand in bringing in his own backroom staff.

This screams to me that Moyes either i) believes they're a better coaching set-up than what was in place under Ferguson or ii), which I think is much more likely, that Moyes does not have a personality strong enough to have replaced Ferguson and kept Ferguson's coaching staff in place. It's easy to say with hindsight, but this decision should have set all kinds of alarm bells off at United when Moyes requested to bring his own coaching staff with him - without looking it up, I think he's only kept Joyce and let the others go - OK, Moyes is undoubtedly at fault for making this change but who at United, when discussing the terms of Moyes' move said "Yeah, that's a cracking idea Davey, I'm sure Phil Neville and Steve Round will take Cleverley and Chris Smalling to the next level"?

This, for me, points to that inherently and frequently incoherent Glaswegian piss head setting up Moyes for a fall, all to protect his own legacy.

Not sure I agree with your last sentence, Gaz, but there are some good points in here.

Presumably Moyes insisted on bringing in his buddies as a condition of accepting the role. The club made a mistake acceding to that as I don't believe he (or Everton) had the stature to justify such demands. But I'm sure it was an error rather than a sabotage job.

Although Kiddo is low profile he has provided important continuity for us. Paddy too although he isn't as close to the first team.

Assistant managers and back-room staff are vital cogs in the wheel. The rags are learning that the hard way.

[Edited for typos]

 

[inchy14]

Talking last night to a good work colleague who also does a lot of work at Finch Farm, read into that what you want...

Rooney is not a happy chappy, apart from Chelsea there is another PL club he would happily play for *if* they get a Chumps League spot, not just Rooney and RVP that aren't happy though, he said that literally half the team don't like Moyes, have no respect for him, he is trying to rule with an iron fist and it is backfiring big-time.

I hope to fuck he stays and doesn't get sacked as the longer he is there, the more damage he is going to do, fantastic!

Got to be Everton.

 

[samharris]

For what it's worth, I don't think it is the appointment of Moyes that has put United into this predicament, but Moyes deciding he wanted to bring his own back room staff and removing the old guard that, had served them for so well, in many cases, for so many years. I think it's hard to imagine what a transition that is and, to some degree, is what we've done well for the transition from Mancini to Pellegrini.

Structure is just as important as the individual in the process of change management - keeping the likes of Vieira, albeit in a different role, and Kidd in place have, one can only presume, helped the transition for Pellegrini no end as it helps integrate his own ideas and makes it far easier when bringing in Cousillas and Mancisidor, i.e. there's enough change to accurately reflect the change in leadership but not enough to upset the apple cart. Now compare that to United who, for reasons unknown, have given a relatively unproven, in terms of success on the biggest platform, manger with a reputation amongst Everton fans for 'bottling' it see Villarreal, FA Cup final defeat, defeat to Wigan in last season's cup and umpteen others where Everton missed their big chance a free hand in bringing in his own backroom staff.

This screams to me that Moyes either i) believes they're a better coaching set-up than what was in place under Ferguson or ii), which I think is much more likely, that Moyes does not have a personality strong enough to have replaced Ferguson and kept Ferguson's coaching staff in place. It's easy to say with hindsight, but this decision should have set all kinds of alarm bells off at United when Moyes requested to bring his own coaching staff with him - without looking it up, I think he's only kept Joyce and let the others go - OK, Moyes is undoubtedly at fault for making this change but who at United, when discussing the terms of Moyes' move said "Yeah, that's a cracking idea Davey, I'm sure Phil Neville and Steve Round will take Cleverley and Chris Smalling to the next level"?

This, for me, points to that inherently and frequently incoherent Glaswegian piss head setting up Moyes for a fall, all to protect his own legacy.

Funny that Moyes felt the need to change the backroom staff but no major changes to the team...surely if he wanted it to be the'Moyes era' hed have put 2 or 3 of his own choices in there..
The only player hes added has gone backwards..

I don't believe it wasn't for lack of trying - bringing in Fellaini and going for Baines, again, should have been another pointer towards Moyes getting it so wrong. I can understand why a manager would want to surround himself with 'his people' - but surely a manager should be making personnel changes for the good of the club, rather than the good of himself?

The biggest problem Moyes had was the GPC and his legacy..I think he needed to make changes or he would have been seen as just carrying on where GPC left off...poor sod was between a rock and a hard place..
couldnt have happened to a nicer person ;)

 

[adrianr]

Talking last night to a good work colleague who also does a lot of work at Finch Farm, read into that what you want...

Rooney is not a happy chappy, apart from Chelsea there is another PL club he would happily play for *if* they get a Chumps League spot, not just Rooney and RVP that aren't happy though, he said that literally half the team don't like Moyes, have no respect for him, he is trying to rule with an iron fist and it is backfiring big-time.

I hope to fuck he stays and doesn't get sacked as the longer he is there, the more damage he is going to do, fantastic!

Got to be Everton.

Arsenal I'd have thought. He knows Everton won't be regulars in the CL even if they somehow miraculously make it this year. That said, there's little doubt Arsenal will get a place, so maybe you're right! Would be pretty left field though.

 

[GazC]

For what it's worth, I don't think it is the appointment of Moyes that has put United into this predicament, but Moyes deciding he wanted to bring his own back room staff and removing the old guard that, had served them for so well, in many cases, for so many years. I think it's hard to imagine what a transition that is and, to some degree, is what we've done well for the transition from Mancini to Pellegrini.

Structure is just as important as the individual in the process of change management - keeping the likes of Vieira, albeit in a different role, and Kidd in place have, one can only presume, helped the transition for Pellegrini no end as it helps integrate his own ideas and makes it far easier when bringing in Cousillas and Mancisidor, i.e. there's enough change to accurately reflect the change in leadership but not enough to upset the apple cart. Now compare that to United who, for reasons unknown, have given a relatively unproven, in terms of success on the biggest platform, manger with a reputation amongst Everton fans for 'bottling' it see Villarreal, FA Cup final defeat, defeat to Wigan in last season's cup and umpteen others where Everton missed their big chance a free hand in bringing in his own backroom staff.

This screams to me that Moyes either i) believes they're a better coaching set-up than what was in place under Ferguson or ii), which I think is much more likely, that Moyes does not have a personality strong enough to have replaced Ferguson and kept Ferguson's coaching staff in place. It's easy to say with hindsight, but this decision should have set all kinds of alarm bells off at United when Moyes requested to bring his own coaching staff with him - without looking it up, I think he's only kept Joyce and let the others go - OK, Moyes is undoubtedly at fault for making this change but who at United, when discussing the terms of Moyes' move said "Yeah, that's a cracking idea Davey, I'm sure Phil Neville and Steve Round will take Cleverley and Chris Smalling to the next level"?

This, for me, points to that inherently and frequently incoherent Glaswegian piss head setting up Moyes for a fall, all to protect his own legacy.

Not sure I agree with your last sentence, Gaz, but there are some good points in here.

Presumably Moyes insisted on bringing in his buddies as a condition of accepting the role. The club made a mistake acceding to that as I don't believe he (or Everton) had the stature to justify such demands. But I'm sure it was an error rather than a sabotage job.

Although Kiddo is low profile he has provided important continuity for us. Paddy too although he isn't as close yo the first team.

Assistant managers and back-room staff are a vital cog in the wheel. The rags are learn that the hard way.

I gave the last sentence some thought, and to be honest, the reason why I've come to that conclusion is not only because Moyes has been allowed to systematically dismantle the non-playing staff but because of who else was available (and more importantly) wanted the job and had far better credentials. Perhaps I'm putting too much emphasis on Ferguson's influence in choosing a successor and any role he had during negotiations in the move (I'm only presuming he had some in his role now as a director and surely he would have been consulted on terms). Perhaps a more plausible scenario is Woodward agreed to Moyes' demands and didn't/doesn't fully understand that the backroom staff at any football club are almost as important as the manager themselves. Still - I find it difficult to believe/understand that Ferguson would not have been involved or consulted on this at some stage.