United Thread - 2021/22

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gordondaviesmoustache said:
Fuck me you can type fast!

We’re probably going to engage in some satellite litigation here, but intelligent people are perfectly capable of exercising poor judgement in terms of football, or more widely. I’ve encountered many intelligent people who repeatedly display poor judgement. Not sure I’d necessarily conflate the two. Plenty of people I know who aren’t that bright habitually exercise good judgement. Plenty of ridiculously clever ones I know who don’t. Alhough, I guess judgement is definitely a form of intelligence, so on that basis you have a point. It’s a complicated debate, as the human brain is such a complex organ.

Also profoundly disagree that being racist and intelligent are mutually exclusive. Lamentably, plenty of intelligent people are racist. They are the dangerous ones.

I’m not sue I’d agree that Keane completely lacks emotional intelligence, but even if he did it’s a separate metric imo. And I consciously said ‘relatively intelligent’. Wouldn’t describe him as intelligent without that caveat. Not within the context of my own personal experience at least.

Lastly, I also think there’s an arguable case for Ronald being the greatest footballer of all time, given his track record and physique at his prime. He’d certainly make my best XI. Not sure if that makes me a bit thick.

Not for me to say, I guess…
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It is cos I am on my keyboard at my PC, not a phone or tablet.

Fair enough on all that. You make good points and I am not arrogant enough to think I can't be wrong.

As for Ronaldo, I just don't see how you can say that. You don't rate a player based on his track record (Pele has three more world cups than him and Gento has one more European Cup than him, so trophies and stats mean little to me, most of his accolades are down to longevity, which he deserves praise for) and 'physique', it isn't athletics or a spreadsheet. You rate them based on their talent, intelligence, dribbling, passing, genius factor etc. Ronaldo even in his prime had loads of games where he masked doghsit performances with goals. You can call him the greatest goalscorer of all time, but he's not even close to being the greatest FOOTBALLER of all time, given his passing, dribbling, playmaking and combination play (which are all more important and frequently used skills in football than heading or penalties) are light years behind many players, not just Messi. I mean the **** can barely control a ball these days, I can't remember Pele or Maradona ever struggling to control a ball even on shit pitches with heavy boots. Maradona even when pissed and coked up to the eyeballs could do with an orange with C Ronaldo can't do with a football. C Ronaldo also takes more shots than anyone in football so he's more of a volume law of averages shooter than a clinical finisher, and has been for many years.

Can you honestly tell me C Ronaldo is a better dribbler, passer or playmaker than guys like Messi, maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Zidane, L Ronaldo etc? Take away his goals and there's not much there really. Even in his prime he wasn't a stand out dribbler, he was a kick and run dribbler really. Take away Messi's goals and you still have one of the best dribblers, passers and playmakers of all time.

As far as I am concerned, calling C Ronaldo 'arguably the greatest footballer of all time' when many players are better dribblers, free kick takers, infinitely better passers short and long (has C Ronaldo ever played a crossfield pass? )is wildly overrating the lad. He's an unbelievable goalscorer (although probably done more stat padding than anyone else since about 1960) but in terms of sheer footballing genius and x factor he falls behind many. For the last 7 or 8 years, which includes the most successful period of his career trophy wise, he has basically played as a poacher relying on service. I can't rate players like that as better than one man wrecking crews like Messi or L Ronaldo or Maradona.

I don't care about his physique because running fast, jumping high, having a six pack (which in his case is pointless as he never pressed in his life and would rather fall over than use strength most of the time) are athletic skills. They're not rare, they are things that are common to many people. But being able to dribble like Messi or Maradona, or pass like Michael Laudrup? Now that is uncommon beauty and genius.

If you go through Ronaldo and Messi's almost equal amount of goals, which one do you think scored goals which were of a higher degree of difficulty and more aesthetically pleasing more often? Ronaldo has so many tap ins, one on ones, headers, penalties over his career. Nothing wrong with that but his genuine amazing goals and what the fuck moments pale in comparison to an alien like Messi. And I don't like Messi, he's a prick, but he IS miles better as a footballer than Ronaldo and 99 per cent of people within football agree with me (yes it is the appeal to authority fallacy but humour me).

As you can see, I am a romantic, not a statistician.
 
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DC1982 said:
Fair enough on all that. You make good points and I am not arrogant enough to think I can't be wrong.

As for Ronaldo, I just don't see how you can say that. You don't rate a player based on his track record (Pele has three more world cups than him and Gento has one more European Cup than him, so trophies and stats mean little to me) and 'physique', it isn't athletics or a spreadsheet. You rate them based on their talent, intelligence, dribbling, passing, genius factor etc. Ronaldo even in his prime had loads of games where he masked doghsit performances with goals. You can call him the greatest goalscorer of all time, but he's not even close to being the greatest FOOTBALLER of all time, given his passing, dribbling, playmaking and combination play (which are all more important and frequently used skills in football than heading or penalties) are light years behind many players, not just Messi. I mean the **** can barely control a ball these days, I can't remember Pele or Maradona ever struggling to control a ball even on shit pitches with heavy boots. Maradona even when pissed and coked up to the eyeballs could do with an orange with C Ronaldo can't do with a football. C Ronaldo also takes more shots than anyone in football so he's more of a volume law of averages shooter than a clinical finisher, and has been for many years.

Can you honestly tell me C Ronaldo is a better dribbler, passer or playmaker than guys like Messi, maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Zidane, L Ronaldo etc? Take away his goals and there's not much there really. Take away Messi's goals and you still have one of the best dribblers, passers and playmakers of all time.

As far as I am concerned, calling C Ronaldo 'arguably the greatest footballer of all time' is wildly overrating the lad. He's an unbelievable goalscorer (although probably done more stat padding than anyone else since about 1960) but in terms of sheer footballing genius he falls behind many.

I don't care about his physique because running fast, jumping high, having a six pack (which in his case is pointless as he never pressed in his life and would rather fall over than use strength most of the time) are athletic skills. They're not rare, they are things that are common to many people. But being able to dribble like Messi or Maradona, or pass like Michael Laudrup? Now that is uncommon beauty and genius.
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To dismiss physique out of hand conspicuously ignores the role that speed, stamina and strength contribute towards the make up of a great player. They are just as important, collectively, as skill, and at his prime he possessed all three to the exclusion of all others. It’s crazy to discount those factors when evaluating someone’s status as a footballer. They are central components.


I would also add, that he was, and remains a highly skilful player, otherwise I wouldn’t be engaging in this debate. To suggest he is not a highly skillful player seems a bit daft.
 
Newman Noggs said:
Surely united must be thinking Rio Ferdinand as their next manager. He was influential in negotiating Ole's full-time contract and persuaded the legend that is Ronaldo that he should return to united when the media thought his head had been turned. The man's a shoe-in.
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That really would be the cherry on the cake. Would suit his continued quest for reality TV induced stardom.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
To dismiss physique out of hand conspicuously ignores the role that speed, stamina and strength contribute towards the make up of a great player. They are just as important, collectively, as skill, and at his prime he possessed all three to the exclusion of all others. It’s crazy to discount those factors when evaluating someone’s status as a footballer. They are central components.


I would also add, that he was, and remains a highly skilful player, otherwise I wouldn’t be engaging in this debate. To suggest he is not a highly skillful player seems a bit daft.
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No they're not, they matter as a player but they're more common to average players than anything Messi does. Any talentless twat can become a great athlete, it's a leveller but it will never make someone a great FOOTBALLER. You know, technique, passing, dribbling. It makes them an athlete. Theo Walcott etc. Obviously Ronaldo is far better than him but I am taking your flawed point to its most extreme conclusion. The only way fitness improves technique is through being sharper and tiring less quickly so retaining your maximum level of technique longer in a game or season.

Call him highly skilful all you like, it doesn't change the fact that he constantly passes to the opposition these days, has a dogshit first touch, can't dribble. Now, he was better in his prime admittedly. He was passable at these things, but you called him the GREATEST FOOTBALLER OF ALL TIME. There's a massive chasm between being a decent or ok passer or dribbler and being the best of all time, lol. Answer this question - is Ronaldo a better passer or dribbler than Messi, Maradona, pele, L Ronaldo or Zidane? Does he have more flair than those players? yes or no. the answer to me is a resounding 'fuck no!!'

You can say he remains a highly skilful player all you like, but watch him play and the ball bounces off him as often as it does Lukaku and he looks so stiff and robotic on the ball. I think you're just lazily repeating things because he's considered one of the best players ever so you don't wanna analyse his game properly. He offers nothing outside the box and has been playing as a poacher for years, benefitting off others hard work. He's also by far the biggest offender I have ever seen of improving his stats to the detriment of the team's well being, especially in recent years. He's really not skilful any more at all, and even if he was, he can't lace Messi, pele, Maradona, Zidane's boots in terms of sheer footballing talent outside of goalscoring, so based on the claim you made, it's irrelevant even if he was highly skilful. Being apparently very skilful doesn't make him Maradona, who was a genius and an alien.

Sorry, but saying he's a better footballer than Maradona and Messi is so far wrong I don't know where to start. You're miles off. Better goalscorer fair enough. But not footballer.
 
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