US Politics Thread

Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Tbh having lived through one trump presidency that didn't really change anything here I'm not excited at the prospect of another. If he wins he'll have his term and disappear.
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Then you fundamentally misunderstand—as you seemingly do on many topics related to US politics—both the nature and circumstances of his first term, and the nature and potential implications of a second for him.
 
SebastianBlue said:
Then you fundamental misunderstand both the nature and circumstances of his first term, and the nature and potential implications of a second for him.
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Possibly, but I'm happy to base my opinion on the slightly crap first go he had and I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about the American electorate possibly deciding to let him have another go. Says more about the paucity of what's on offer from the democrats really if trump still seems like the best option. Also, plenty of polling suggests he won't win and worrying never helped anything
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Possibly, but I'm happy to base my opinion on the slightly crap first go he had and I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about the American electorate possibly deciding to let him have another go. Says more about the paucity of what's on offer from the democrats really if trump still seems like the best option. Also, plenty of polling suggests he won't win and worrying never helped anything
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Actively working to stop him from being re-elected is not simply “worrying”.

And discussing the implications, not only for the US, but also for the world, on here (and other public forums), especially in the context of the rise of far-right and fascist ideology and actions across Europe, is in my opinion a very worthy effort.

Particularly when you consider that much of the far-right resurgence we are seeing today was spurred on by discussions on internet forums like this one. Thus, combatting it on internet forums like this one is vital, just as it was combatting far-right and fascist ideology in the squares, pubs, cafes, universities, football matches, and other public meeting places in the 20th century.

I only have so much time left on this planet, and I am not going to use it to be complicit in the rise of the far-right here in the US, or in the UK, Spain, across Europe, or anywhere else, for that matter, through indifference or deference.
 
I didn't realise you were a modern day crusader of sorts. Fare thee well gallant sir on your mission to cleanse the internet, it is a deep and unfathomable rabbit hole with all sorts in it.
Seriously, you should volunteer for moderator duties if that's your thing.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I didn't realise you were a modern day crusader of sorts. Fare thee well gallant sir on your mission to cleanse the internet, it is a deep and unfathomable rabbit hole with all sorts in it.
Seriously, you should volunteer for moderator duties if that's your thing.
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Your flippancy and indifference to the danger of the rise of the far-right is one of the reasons I fear it taking hold here and in Europe, especially as I will likely shortly not be with my wife and son to help navigate it and the flavour threatening to take power here in the US wants to strip her of most of her rights (and potentially many of his, depending on his gender and sexuality, and certainly for his ethnicity if people like Stephen Miller are given real power). That prospect truly frightens me, and I think it should frighten any rational, forward thinking, compassionate person.

But, I get it, you don’t care about anyone but yourself, and so as long as you feel you are doing well, everyone else can get fucked.
 
Trump tried to hire 50 CENT to support his rally. And with 3 million dollars.

That money could go to a better cause. Wtf is it with politicians and musicians, esp rappers?

Imagine that shit here.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Possibly, but I'm happy to base my opinion on the slightly crap first go he had and I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about the American electorate possibly deciding to let him have another go. Says more about the paucity of what's on offer from the democrats really if trump still seems like the best option. Also, plenty of polling suggests he won't win and worrying never helped anything
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Should Trump become President, there's every reason to believe that his second term in office will be far worse than his first.

In his first term, Trump was surrounded, even in his cabinet, and indeed in the person of his Vice President - by those who would only go so far before taking a hard stance against his extreme tendencies. This happened on several occasions (e.g., Trump wanting to fire the attorney general to replace him with Jeffrey Clark "in order to wield the department’s power to force Georgia state lawmakers to overturn its presidential election results" (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/...lark-trump-justice-department-election.html); Trump wanting to use the military to seize voting machines (https://www.politico.com/news/2022/...that-would-have-seized-voting-machines-527572), to name just but two of many such).

In a second term, Trump will install loyal sycophants who will do whatever he wants.

Numerous of these loyalists will have their own extreme agendas and will almost certainly persuade Trump to abuse the power of the presidency in furtherance of their aims. Trump is notoriously persuadable, taking up the position of whomever last spoke with him on many occasions.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Should Trump become President, there's every reason to believe that his second term in office will be far worse than his first.

In his first term, Trump was surrounded, even in his cabinet, and indeed in the person of his Vice President - by those who would only go so far before taking a hard stance against his extreme tendencies. This happened on several occasions (e.g., Trump wanting to fire the attorney general to replace him with Jeffrey Clark "in order to wield the department’s power to force Georgia state lawmakers to overturn its presidential election results" (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/...lark-trump-justice-department-election.html); Trump wanting to use the military to seize voting machines (https://www.politico.com/news/2022/...that-would-have-seized-voting-machines-527572), to name just but two of many such).

In a second term, Trump will install loyal sycophants who will do whatever he wants.

Numerous of these loyalists will have their own extreme agendas and will almost certainly persuade Trump to abuse the power of the presidency in furtherance of their aims. Trump is notoriously persuadable, taking up the position of whomever last spoke with him on many occasions.
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I wrote in detail about why Trump’s second term will be much worse (i.e. the real power behind the MAGA movement will be able to enact their vision much more readily) back in July (quoted below).

His second term will be very different to his first.

SebastianBlue said:
Trump was completely unprepared for winning the election—there are entire books about how much of a scramble it was just to get the bare minimum personal in place when he was inaugurated. He ran a very lean staff for his entire term relative to previous administrations, with record levels of turnover and, by all accounts, infighting. And he still had large amounts of opposition to much of his policy aspirations and desired actions, even within his own party and administration. Over the course of those four years, he was not able to do a lot of what he wanted largely due to the internal opposition within the Republican Party, the federal government system, and, later, a Democratically lead House.

Even so, he still was able to lay the ground work for the dissolution of democratic institutions. He has created a far-right controlled Supreme Court which is stripping away women’s rights, rendering federal agencies tasked with regulating the environment, economy, and social welfare toothless, has essentially anointed anyone holding the office of President as the American King through a ludicrously ambiguous decision on Presidential Immunity, have essentially made the criminalisation of homeless people the law of the land, continues to gut voting rights, and will likely go after LGBTQ+ rights after the election. He undermined (in some cases eviscerated) several federal agencies and sold the regulation carried out by others to the highest bidder. He helped to create the immigration crisis the US faces right now, along with the insane, counterproductive policies of Republicans, even going so far as to recently kill a bipartisan bill that Republicans and Democrats negotiated for months and had the votes to pass so that immigration could continue to be an issue he could campaign on (that was while he wasn’t even president). He undermined US leadership of NATO and support of Ukraine, which partially emboldened Putin to mount a full invasion (and since sabre-rattle about doing so in other former Soviet-controlled regions) and encouraged Xi to become more aggressive with China’s efforts to take Hong Kong, Taiwan, and expand their claims to the South China Sea and surrounds. He mismanaged the pandemic leading to thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of excess deaths; there are still debates as to whether it was—at least initially—an intentional mismanagement. He further undermined public faith in the integrity of the office of the Presidency, even extending to Congress (not that the public had much faith in that body to begin with), and introduced unprecedented levels of corruption, all the while advocating, agitating, acting to be more of a dictator. He was able to almost destroy the Department of Education (which has long been a goal of the far-right and ultra-conservative Republicans); it has famously taken a massive effort to try to reconstitute it under Biden. He empowered Christian and White nationalists at both the federal and state level through both rhetoric, funding, and political appointments. He and his cronies embedded dysfunction, corruption, and distrust in to the election system, which itself is perhaps one of the most damaging, dangerous, and long lasting accomplishments. He worked to undermine public confidence in the free press, in direct rhetoric calling the media the “enemy of the people”, policy (the FCC was an absolute shambles under him and the SC continues to chip away at press freedoms), and by constantly and egregiously spreading dis- and misinformation in an official capacity. His aim was the same as Putin’s: not to simply undermine the truth, but to destroy the very concept that “truth” existed.

And, arguably the most sinister of his first term efforts, he managed to begin the process of purging the ranks of people that he deemed adversarial and/or disloyal to him—many of his previously most “trusted” associates were a part of that purge. Not disloyal to the nation or the constitution: disloyal to him and his MAGA apparatus. He has continued and accelerated that to the point that now he essentially has complete control over the Republican Party, right down to the RNC and officially related entities. He has put his family members in top level leadership roles and has completely focused all campaign efforts on his presidential bid, literally leaving senate, house, state, county, and local campaign coordination to volunteer groups. His campaign is not even allowing non-Trump related political signs or other campaign materials at his various regional campaign headquarters. The Republican party was divided and in civil war in his first term; MAGA was still only a part of the right- and far-right-wing environment when he took office. Now the Republican Party, for all intents and purposes, is the MAGA party. It is unified and behind Trump, with many ultra conservative (or straight up far-right) entities spending literally millions (perhaps billions when all is said and done) to make sure they have a comprehensive plan and carefully selected “loyal” people to fill every role if he wins this time. They plan to further purge the federal civil service’s ranks to ensure no opposition to his every whim (or the whims of those enriching him, whether foreign or domestic) exists in his second term. And that is just one of a bevy of actions and policies his camp plans to enact as soon as he takes the oath.

The only thing that might have a chance of slowing him down would be an opposition or split Congress. But if he gets both the House and Senate, he would control all branches of government.

And I want to be clear: when I say “Trump” or “he”, I mean him and the vast network of far-right, ultra-conservative, Christian/White nationalist (I group them together because there is A LOT of overlap), corporate, and foreign actors behind him. He is not a lone figure, bending America to his will, by any means. But he is very much a reflection and embodiment of all the bad actors that want to see him back in power.

He will continue to use the “slow ramp” tactics of incrementally increasing the darkness and intensity of his speech and proposed actions/policies until, like Hitler, his supporters don’t even flinch when he announces he will round up all “illegal immigrants” and put them in camps for mass deportation. Or begin a programme of mass arrests of dissenters and political opposition. Or pass laws returning women’s rights back to the 1700s. Or institute policies (and agitate for Supreme Court decisions) to abolish the first amendment, installing Evangelical Christianity as the official religion of the US and allowing him to have unchecked powers over the media.



See above. He managed to lay the ground work in his first, largely disjointed term. His second term will be very different. His Supreme Court’s truly catastrophic Presidential Immunity ruling will empower him to far more, far more quickly. And his term will likely not end at the constitutionally-mandated 4 years (8 years in total). Do you really think he will just leave at the end?

I would clarify, as well, that my comparison is of Trump now to Hitler prior to his rise to absolute power, which occurred in the mid-1930s. Trump obviously has not become a “fuhrer” type figure yet. But “yet” is the operative word. People tend to focus on Hitler at the height of his power, and later his demise, without really studying exactly how he got there.

And if you do, you’ll see many similarities in the track and trajectory between Trump and Hitler. And in the rhetoric, behaviour, and outcomes.

It’s also important to point out that Hitler’s (and the Nazi party’s) popular vote share in the last free and fair elections in 1932 were 37% in July and 33% in November, so he barely had a third of the voting population’s support. And even in the election in 1933, after his Nazi forces raged a campaign of intimidation and terror (even acting as poll “monitors”), and shortly after they burned down the Reichstag, he only got 44% of the popular vote. He didn’t need 100% support, he just needed enough to gain power and access to the institutions and resources of government. Then he could work to demolish those institutions and replace them with ones that served his aims without question or hesitance.

And guess what anachronistic system is employed for presidential elections in America that can enable someone to win the office without winning the popular vote (something Trump exploited in the 2016 election, where he got just 46% of the popular vote to Clinton’s 48%)?

As I have said in previous posts, the time to highlight a dangerous bad actor’s similarities to Hitler (and his rise) is not after he has assumed absolute power. The time, when there are legitimate parallels, is well before that.
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